EUREKA!!!

[permetaform]

What's your template, what's the script that underlies everything? Or, if you don't have a story you keep telling, maybe there's a story you keep reading. Is there something that underlies all of your favorite fairytales and novels and television shows and fanfics?

~witchqueen by way of latxcvi

I'm encouraging all ya'll to go answer that in her journal...But!

I've figured out why the Sparrington wasn't working!! ::DANCE::

Namely: My 'One True Story' is Opposites Held by Golden Chord. It's pretty much the Pisces zodiac sign (two fish swimming in apart, tied together).

Or in other words, individuals (who are similar) that move in opposite directions but are held inextricably together and are forever circling each other despite themselves...

And, see, the only way that that the they can actively move in different directions is if they have complete identities in their own right. They are similar entities, but *separate*. They aren't joined because they *are* one another (ie. The Coin With Two Heads), rather, they are joined for a reason *beyond* that. They aren't *defined* by each other, be it in opposition or in similarity. They may be 'similar' or 'opposite', but they're not basing themselves on the 'presence' of the other.

And now everything make sense! Because, y'see, Jack and Norrington's existence *are* defined by each other, The Establishment and The Anti-Establishment. And THAT is also why I don't give two hoots about Sirius/Remus, Qui/Obi, Frodo/Sam, and the whole LotRPS!

And it makes the Sands/El, Superman/Batman, and the Qui/Maul make sense! ::DANCE:: YAY! so. incredibly. relieved!

[edit] and this might actually be why I love resurrection!fic so much, what more ultimate proof could you have that a pairing is tied together irrevocably than having them be reborn and finding each other again?

[edit2] y'know, this may be why I'm not especially interested in Jack/Bootstrap fic. Thing is, at this point, Bootstrap is almost purely defined through Jack, with bit here and there from Will and Pintel. But then because Bootstrap is delinated by Jack, I can't reconcile a relationship in my mind. It always feels flat or one-sided.

[edit3] and guede_mazaka totally rocks my OTS. Delivering stuff like The Mexico series and lines like these:

"Sands isn’t a wife, isn’t a soulmate, isn’t a missing half. He doesn’t fill anything that was absent in El; if anything, the little jackass tears out more holes. But then, so does El.
...
He’ll fight to keep that, to have the privilege of snarling and clawing and hurting this one man. And to let Sands snarl and claw and wound him back. He will turn the key in the lock and push open the gate, he will cross through and Sands will follow till they’ve torn themselves into one."

~ from Archetype: Gate


Exactly. ::happysigh::

Comments

[elekdragon.livejournal.com]

And it makes the Sands/El, Superman/Batman, and the Qui/Maul make sense!

Qui/Maul? *perk* *looks around excitedly* where? where?

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

I have no idea what my story is. I really need to think about this, because I'm dying to know.

[juniper200.livejournal.com]

That makes a lot of sense. The whole thread is food for thought.

(There are people who don't love resurrection!fic? Weird. Do you read the Taxverse stories? Yum.)

[permetaform]

heh, sorry m'dear, there's nothing new floating about I'm sad to say...::goes to reread Coyotes' old stuff::

[permetaform]

(There are people who don't love resurrection!fic? Weird. Do you read the Taxverse stories? Yum.)

Yes! I love them unspeakably much! They named the ferret Hector!! ::DIES::

[rokeon.livejournal.com]

That definitely makes sense, and this is going on my list of things to ponder. I'm pretty sure I know what mine is, but it's not something I've ever tried to define before.

Have you ever tried reading Mulder/Krycek?

[franzeska]

Dude. Resurrection is hottt. 'Course, I mostly like it because I read too much Poe as a kiddo and have a fixation on unnaturally pretty dead people. *hides her cheesy novel on resurrectionists "raising" the dead*

[permetaform]

huh, nope. (tho I've read Krycek/Eminem...) do you have any recs??

[rokeon.livejournal.com]

I'm in the process of picking them out, but this is tougher than I thought- there are a lot of good stories out there, but it's harder to pick the really great ones.

My personal favorites are the ones that make you understand that Krycek wants to save the world just as much as Mulder does, but he knows there's too much at stake to leave any of it to chance.

Here's one I do have handy, since it just got delivered by the crack van- The Gift of an Enemy (http://strangeplaces.net/sylvia/Gift/Gift.htm).

"Yes," he said at last, his eyes cold. "I suspected he might be messing with my mind, but what I saw was a gun."

Absurdly, Mulder was relieved.

"I would also have shot him if I’d seen the Bible," Krycek added, his voice sharp and precise as ice.

"That man thinks sideways!"

[juniper200.livejournal.com]

They just make me squee over and over. Much love to the Byrd and the Smith.

[rokeon.livejournal.com]

I haven't read any of this stuff in ages, so this has been like going through old yearbooks and looking at the people who were in my class- vaguely remember that one, I'd forgotten her, was he even there?, hated him, hey! my bestest best friend!

There's so much studying I should be doing right now that I'm not. *bliss*

Alright, four stories: two very good standalones, written by two of my favorite authors, each with a longer sequel that pretty much blows you away. I hope you like them.

Sleeps With Coyotes
Breathless (http://ciceqi.slashcity.com/breathless.html)
Solidarity (http://ciceqi.slashcity.com/solidarity.htm)

Torch
Ghosts (http://strangeplaces.net/torch/ghosts.html)
Lovers (http://strangeplaces.net/torch/lovers.html)

[copper-rose.livejournal.com]

Hiya...I COULD be egotistical and pitch my own XF fic at you... :)

Mostly wrote a bunch of Mulder/Krycek, with a couple of dabblings into Skinner/Krycek, and the odd story out. Like the three part crossover with Highlander, since Nick Lea appeared in both shows(can we say, mistaken identity much?).

Though, I MUST admit the oddest XF story I ever wrote was a cross with From Dusk Til Dawn. Krycek and Seth Gecko.

And I must admit that the whole push/pull of characters who love/hate each other is always a big draw to me. Or, in the case of Jack/Norrington fic, the whole freedom vs duty idea.

Adoring my new DVD,

CopperRose (Garnet)

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm.... I kind of, kind of understand what you're saying here, but... at the same time, I really don't. It more sounds to me like you're just reading bad Jack/Norrington, Sirius/Remus, Qui/Obi, and Frodo/Sam fics... I firmly believe that a character that can only exist as a foil is a sign of bad writing. Not that I'm even particularly attracted to Jack/Norrington, but are you sure that the reason you dislike it is just because the fics you've read so far have only presented the pairing in this rudimentry light and, I'm assuming you were working on your own fic here, you were so heavily influenced by this that you had difficulty breaking away from it? Don't just look at Norrington/Jack as establishment vs anti-estabilishment. That's not all there is in their characters. For example, they're similar in that Norrington just lost a woman, and Jack lost his woman and it was ten years before he got her back (yes, the Pearl), so they can relate on that note. And that excludes attention to the more romantic side that Norrington has to have to have gone after Will at the behest of his love and to have given his love up because he saw she had found "true love," being able to understand these things shows some sign of a romantic side, and no doubt Jack also has a romantic side. Remember, even if in the movie they're shown most often as foils for each other, once you take the reins these characters are people and it's up to you to let them blossom into three demensions. The original writers may have had far more demensions attached to them, themselves, but the fact is you only have limited interaction with them in the film, so there's also a lot of reading between the lines to be done.


My Bootstrap does not resent the idea that he is delineated by Jack, but is over there chuckling anyway in a way that would probably have Jack offended for a reason he would never be able to discern. (Therefore, we'll just hope ladyjaida doesn't read these comments and the Jack living in her head catch wind of them.)

Actually, my Bootstrap was definied by every hint of information on him in the movie and the extra few sentences of information in the children's novel that were cut, everything else was spontanious character generation. I guess I'm defending the possiblity in the world for someone to devote spontanious, original character generation for Bootstrap. XP And damn it, I wish Jaida and I had time to work on that fic. Ah well, waste not want not, I slivered off a bit of the core of him and used it to fill out another original I was having trouble breathing life into the clay of, so whence I get my original novel published, you can see a completely unrecognizeable permutation of my Bootstrap. :D (Well, there's always the one mini-fic off from the main fic and RP'ness that's here: http://www.livejournal.com/community/twogoodmen/2244.html if LJ will let you at it, may have already read it on Pirategasm, though.) Of course the main fic was going to be terrible. Elizabeth, getting fustrated with the fact that Will wasn't quite the pirate she thought he was, ends up getting it on a bit with his father, who looks quite like him and is a lot more like the man she'd always idealized Will to be... Arrrgh, me wantssss it... the preciousssss.... ::cries because she wants to write that fic but is incapable of writing Jack like Jaida writes Jack and is therefore bound entirely to her Jack-ability and there's just... never... TIME...::

[permetaform]

well, the thing is I usually start reading a pairing by searching for recs of them...and also it's just not similarities or opposites that they have, but huh. Ok, I'm quoting firesignwriter here, with her emphasis, where she says,

It's easier to see in them a meeting of equals, for one thing -- not in the boring, "Okay, we respect each other and will smoothly traverse all our problems," but equals in the sense of always having a question of who's got the upper hand in

this instance, who's willing to yield for that reason...and see that last part? that emphasis on opposing the character, to pretty much define themselves, bothers me, that characters need to be 'clarified' against, or in similarity to, another character.
Further:

the fabric of any relationship they form. Power issues. Repression. And the larger themes they can be used to explore: freedom versus obligation; "take what you can, give nothing back" versus "I serve others, not only myself."

What's funny was that the reasons she was giving, while logical, doesn't work for me, because of the foils for definition that's near inherent with the explaination of their relationship. Snape/Harry doesn't work for me, unless it comes with piles of recommendations I have no inclination to search for it. Chakotay/Paris doesn't work for me, but Tuvok/Paris does. Picard/Q works for me, because the focus for both elsewhere outside of themselves.

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I still have no idea what you're saying, I'm afraid. It still sounds like you're talking about good writing versus bad writing. In good writing characters are never defined by each other. I'm particularly confused because Norrington/Jack, Sands/El, Q/Picard, and Sirius/Remus are all the exact same type of pairing, the more straight laced and quiet guy slashed with a wilder guy who spices them up a little. I don't know anything about Voyager, but... The only difference seems, to me, to be that you've read good fics with one pairing and bad fics with another, as in the hands of the proper storyteller these stories could all turn out in very similar ways. The differences is if the writer chooses to be introspective or plot, aka exterior-situation oriented.

In terms of Qui/Obi or Qui/Maul, I don't see much of a difference there, either, one's a viscious young Sith and the other's a slightly tempremental young Jedi, but I've always thought of Obi Wan and Darth Maul as rather akin to each other, almost two sides of the same coin, both headstrong young padawan under masters who tend to buch the order but have a better sense of control, why one is good and the other bad is where the tension comes in.

I'm interested in what you're saying, but... I also have no clue as to what you're saying. ;-;

[permetaform]

Hmmm... I still have no idea what you're saying, I'm afraid.

::huffs and scratches head:: I get the feeling that we're talking *past* each other. Ok, background questions then: what is your OTS? and fave pairings and pairings you don't care for? What type of stories/character traits do you resonate with?? because I think we're having a 'tomato' argument. (that I'd talked about with firesignwriter here, and amounting to:

"Look! It's has tomatoes!"

"I don't care much for tomatoes."

"But LOOK! It's has TOMATOES!!!!"

and the thing is, I see Norrington/Jack and Sirius/Remus as different from Sands/El and Q/Picard, beyond the normal v. wild dynamic. It's almost *less* to do with the dynamic than the fact that they're defined *beyond* that dynamic.

Again, I think we're looking at these pairings in different ways, coming to these pairings looking for different things and I'm interested to hear where you're coming from because you're reasoning is confusing and a bit opaque to me and I'm getting the feeling that we'd keep talking past each other if I don't know how to address my points to you, from the position you're coming from...

[uguisubari.livejournal.com]

I see what you mean - at least I think I do. But I fail to see how your theory works with Remus/Sirius. Especially on adult Remus and Sirius ... in fact I would say if any Sirius and Snape define each other.

[permetaform]

With Remus and Sirius it's the MWPP thing, and although I do see how adult Remus and Sirius have separated their defining thing is the betrayals, that Remus thought Sirius was guilty and vice versa.

...or at least, that's my view of their characterizations. Their back-histories are too linked, for me.

With Black and Snape, I dunno, I'm not quite sure how you'd say they'd define each other...What would be a defining Black/Snape, was Slowly, But Exceedingly Fine, or Rat's Alley where it has them hating each other, but not completely...er. 'tied up'? with it?

Nevertheless, I've *tried* reading a variety of styles, versions, and qualities, some recced repeatedly, of Sirius/Remus but none of it resonates with me on some level. Like, I believe in them and in their cuteness, but there's no *spark*.

I think I need my characters to be actively moving *opposite* of each other, in a argumentative, moralistic, or combative sense. But without the direct opposite that results in The Coin With Two Heads.

For instance, I like H/D, but don't care for H/Voldemort or H/Snape (antagonistic but defined).

I like Legolas/Gimli, but don't care for Legolas/Aragorn (non-defined but not antagonistic).

I like Maul/Qui and Maul/Obi, but don't care for Qui/Obi (defined *and* similar goal-sets).

[uguisubari.livejournal.com]

With Remus and Sirius it's the MWPP thing, and although I do see how adult Remus and Sirius have separated their defining thing is the betrayals, that Remus thought Sirius was guilty and vice versa.

Hmm when did Sirius believe Remus to be guilty? I must have missed something. Imho Remus is much more defined by being a werewolf, it's what makes him an outcast and it also motivates him to try to get along with almost everybody.

With Black and Snape, I dunno, I'm not quite sure how you'd say they'd define each other...

They both come from a very similar background, dark houses and a not too cosy family life, but at one point took different routes.

Sirius hated his family and above all the Dark Arts, it's this rebellion against his heritage which defines him best. Then there is Snape, this greasy little kid with his overlong nose constantly in some book about black magic. He's the very embodiment of all that which is dark and which Sirius hates. Later on he becomes a Deatheater, Sirius joins the Rebellion. He might not be defined by Snape himself, but by hatred for everything Snape represents. (much like Establishment and Anti-Establishment, isn't it?)

Severus ... he's a bitter soul. He was ill-treated and hardened himself against the world. What defines him best is probably his hatred. His hatred for himself (for being such a weak kid), for the world which treated him wrong, Sirius who made his life living Hell. It's the driving force behind his urge for dominance - or power.

You could think of them as the light and dark side of a globe, the brighter Sirius shone the darker Severus grew. They are products of their hatred for each other - and for what the other represents.

Anyway, I don't care for Remus/Sirius either. *waves the Remus/Snape banner*

[permetaform]

Remus *himself* is much more defined by the werewolf, but in context of the Remus/Sirius dynamic it's almost a non-issue that becomes more h/c than antagonism. With the not-trusting Remus, it's the whole Secret Keeper business all over again...

With Black/Snape, your own definition of it is very nearly what I mean about the Opposites Held by Golden Chord. Or rather, two fish (similar creatures) swimming in opposite *directions*...

as for the light and dark side of a globe analogy, I don't think there's a direct cause-effect in their relationship in the same way that SB/RL does. My view of Snape is that he was affected more by his surroundings (family/friends/house/dumbledore's reaction to The Prank) than he is by Sirius himself. Or rather, less so with Sirius' actions than with the disapportionate favoritism that surrounds those actions. However Sirius is one of the few that Snape can directly lash out at while being a double-agent under Dumbledore's protection...

And especially with the Snivellus thing, I'm not sure that Snape is exactly the representation of what Sirius hates; he may *map* onto Snape that view, but it's not Snape *himself* that he's reacting to...

[uguisubari.livejournal.com]

And especially with the Snivellus thing, I'm not sure that Snape is exactly the representation of what Sirius hates; he may *map* onto Snape that view, but it's not Snape *himself* that he's reacting to...

I wonder if in this case what a person maps onto another and what the other person really is really make a difference? After all what the person believes the other to be is what is curcical for the person himself. (isn't this what representing means anyway?). Snape must remind Sirius strongly of his own family, maybe even what he himself is supposed to be like (studying Dark Arts, being in Slytherin), the fact that he's also "weak" in turn offers Sirius the wonderful opportunity to let out all his aggressions toward his family on Snape. He's both all that which is evil and ... well a pathetic wimp. (Which only makes black magic even more unattractive)

Apart from this while his surrounding of course did affect Snape, I wouldn't underestimate Sirius's direct influence either. It was Sirius who played the prank on him, it was Sirius and James who humiliated him none stop for seven years (if you go by some theories 24 hours a day). I think that's more than enough reason to be a direct cause.

..... I think we don't separate the fishes from the indestructible-connection in quite the same way.

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

Hmm... Okay. Let's see. Well, I guess, weirdly, my OTS is probably the story of the menage a trois. My good friend and I who've been roleplaying together for the past eight years have a weird way of finding three way relationships between our characters creeping up on us... Yohko/Higure/Kuronue, Heero/Kaumi/Duo, Trowa/Subaru+Seshirou, Ky/Sol/Noir... I always end up trying to find those dynamics that make a three way relationship work... There's something a bit perfect about a working menage a trois and I love getting around to seeing how that balances itself out over the course of a story... Angst is better, too, in menage a trois, because somebody's often being asked to choose sides or will just be like "You two, go work it out, I'm not getting into this but I'm here if you need me." Ahhh... good stuff.

As for pairings... Well, I care for most pairings. This is my problem with music too. "What's your favorite type of music?" "Uh..." Because I like what I like and sometimes I don't like things within a type even though it's similar to something else I do like... This may, in fact, be where we're having trouble communicating, because with me, every time, it's the contrast between the whole personality and little quirks between two characters more than it is... Well, more than it is anything else.

I guess I'm still totally missing what you're saying about being defined beyond the dynamic, because to some degree or another every person is defined beyond their dynamic. If you're only defining yourself against one other person--and trust me, I got into a rut of this--then you become an awfully boring person. If you're not going out and having individual experiences, awakening something new in you, and bringing that back to your partner, then the relationship stagnates and fails. I can't see any relationship where the dynamic is the only defining factor. It sounds to me like you only like chracters who have come from wildly different life experiences, but in the case of all four of those pairings the characters have been defined by external circumstances and natrually define themselves withing the relationship as well. I mean, I don't think a (healthy) relationship exists where you can't say that. *scratches head*