RE: muses

[permetaform]

th_nightengale mentioned muse-independant v. muse-dependant creation of artwork, and wondered about the possible demographics of creators who might or might not work with a muse.

[Poll #480760]
Personally, I work independant of a muse but keep on hearing about them occasionally in that other people use them. musesfool helped me clarify the idea of a muse in that the way I'm addressing them here is specifically as a separate individual entity.

If you do work with a muse, what form do they take and/or look like? Do you know what they look like? Do they change depending on your project?

Also, could this be at all culturally motivated? ie. more of an emphasis from western cultures who have a tradition (from the Greeks) of muses? OR could it be more prominent from cultures who do not like to accept the idea that inspiration/creativitiy/intelligence comes from oneself? (versus a higher being? or an alternate being?)

[edit] This also brings up interesting issues around sources of inspiration, and faith; can/should/could inspiration be attributed to outside sources? Common western psychological thought is that outside voices are simply hallucinations. But other lines of argument argue that creativity is simply a perception of more levels of possibility than those that occur in our current realm of existence...

[interesting threads]
- here (started by karose)
- here (started by sorchafyre)
- here (started by karotsamused)
- here (started by ranalore)
- here (started by aliaswestgate)
- here (started by billradish)
- here (started by th_nightengale)

[interesting followup post]
Muses and Friends - a poll and some discussion about a possible link between muses and the use of imaginary friends

[NOTE] The purpose of this post is to present a friendly forum for discussion. Please keep the discussion friendly and open? Concern is valid, so is criticism; but please keep an open mind. ::hugs flist:: Cool beans?

Comments

[elvaron.livejournal.com]

Hrm. I get random flashes of inspiration -- images, themes, phrases -- that I eventually wrestle down and turn into a larger work. There are times where I can sit down and write 10,000 words over two days, and there are times when it's a chore just to get out 500. I have no idea if this is Musery at work, since there is no proof whatsoever that there's another being poking around in my head. I was under the impression that that's what people say when they talk about muses (although KA's Cassandra does seem to be something else altogether)... so could it simply be individual interpretation?

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

How are you defining 'muse?'

Because I don't have one/believe in them, though I may use the concept to talk about the process of writing when it feels like it's so effortless it's passing through me instead of being created by me.

The characters themselves are muses, in the sense that I 'hear' them having conversations or telling stories in my head, when what I'm really hearing is myself telling myself stories...

So for me 'muse' is a good term for that sort of almost non-consensual creativity, where the story takes over and I keep writing until it stops.

[weyrlady.livejournal.com]

I've always been curious about the people who describe their muses as independent beings, and even give talk about names and personalities. I've never had one even during my most creative periods.

[permetaform]

so could it simply be individual interpretation?

I was thinking that too; and then again, I've known people who can't write without one. Sometimes, the words just flow and the characters interact just perfectly, but is that just me in the Zone?

[wildelamassu.livejournal.com]

I don't even think I understand the "muse" concept--i.e., the independent being who informs one's creative work. I can 'hear' the characters when I write, yes, but they don't exist separately for me.

[lapillus]

Out of my various bits of fannish creation I've twice had muses. Once Krycek (I still don't know why he wanted a sonnet), and once Methos, blowing soap bubbles. It was VERY odd and generally I'm quite content to be left with less personified creativity.

[permetaform]

So for me 'muse' is a good term for that sort of almost non-consensual creativity, where the story takes over and I keep writing until it stops.

See, but do you define that as a separate being from yourself? I've known people who define that as being caused by an Other; like someone whispering in your ear or moving your fingers for you, a disassociation sort of from what you are creating...

[permetaform]

that's why I was wondering if it might be culturally based to be resistent to the idea of creating something by oneself...

[permetaform]

::nods::

I've always been curious about the people who describe their muses as independent beings,

I think you've just defined "muse" for me, mind if I add it in to my original post?

[permetaform]

ooo, could be be more detailed about "personified creativity"?? I think that's sort of what I'm thinking of when I hear 'muse' but I thought to check...

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Oh, no. I know it's all me. Sometimes it just feels as if it isn't. Like I'll read something and go, "Wow, that's good, I can't believe I wrote it," but I know I did. *g*

[permetaform]

::nods:: but what I've been getting from some people (even a couple RL writers I know) is that it's a creation almost disassociated from oneself...

[weyrlady.livejournal.com]

Not at all. I'd like to see where this discussion goes. ^^

[wildelamassu.livejournal.com]

I always understood the Greek definition of a "muse" to be internal inspiration as given divinely, though--I think the fannish definition is an actual independent being that speaks to you, wants things from you, etc., but I'm not sure I've got the concept down. The Greek concept was more of an inspirational citation, whereas from what I understand, the fandom ones are tangible?

[lapillus]

In the case with Krycek it was him circa season 5 looking out of a window through the blinds, evidently in Mulder's apartment. It was a visual image that came to me at work and it there was a clear sense that, a seperate entity, was wanting a sonnet (which is very odd given I've never been much into poetry and had previously written maybe three poems voluntarily in my life, not to mention that I am much more confortable with vids than with words.)

Methos was a bit more direct. I did have the image (this time while driving) and when I got home to write it down there was the strong sense that if I turned to my right and looked at the coach Methos would be sitting there.

As I said in the earlier post both of these are very atypical responses for me. I've written about 20 or so short things in various fandoms and all the rest of the time it's been pretty much about words and ideas and images that are safely non-interactive. I've never had a muse experience with vidding and I suspect that the way I process vid concepts makes it unlikely I will.

[karose.livejournal.com]

Er. Well. Since someone already mentioned my case here...

I believe that I work at the behest of a muse. Not only is she there, but she has the whip and cattle prod and gives very, shall we say, persuasive arguments for me to write whatever she likes.

I wouldn't call it the result of cultural forces, and if that's the case then it's just more of my muse's irony. My understanding of muses stems mostly from what popular culture has to say, and mine certainly isn't an incredibly beautiful woman lounging in red silks on my bed. My girlfriend says she has a pair of muses, has had them for a while and seems convinced of their existence, but the fact that she, and in fact, a lot of girls in our mutual circles, seemed to have them prompted me to the conviction that a muse was the last thing I ever wanted. If they were real, I thought, then muses were rare, and everyone and their sister toting one was a step away from selling the things in jars at Hot Topic.

And then came Cassandra.

Now, I've had it described to me that Cassandra was 1) a result of brain damage (I have unexplainable amnesia, so the notion doesn't seem too far left field), 2) a split personality in the form of auditory hallucinations, or 3) a split personality with imagined auditory hallucinations that I thought up to help corroborate my own story.

Since it's the trend of today's culture to declare ourselves mentally unstable, I tend to the view that I'm satisfactorily sane, but I also acknowledge that this isn't a professional diagnosis, so if Cassandra's just something in my own head, it would make fair enough sense. One friend even reasoned that even if she was a split personality, she seemed to be doing me more good than harm, so there was little danger in encouraging her.

There's the thing. Cassandra doesn't feel like an extension of my own mind, because she offers up ideas far beyond my own ability to design. The K.A. without Cassandra is a very scarily bad, FFN-styled thing. It's ever so fortunate most of those old stories aren't available online these days.

Although, it could be argued that's self-depreciation, like some you mentioned above, motivated by a culture that finds it irrational/conceited to suggest inspiration comes from oneself. We could go on about my personal insecurities only making that all more likely. Even still, as I've said, I was never prone to believe in muses until I started getting this one's voice in my head. Totally sober, level, and far too much of an atheist to acknowledge a god or demon. Anyway, she's yet to tell me to make sinners repent or burn down the churches. Just wants me to write a Broadway musical someday. Which may be just as bad.

In the end: for me, the object of what my muse is is immaterial. I prefer to treat her as an outside entity (insofar as a voice by your ear/in your head is an outside entity), but even if she is just the product of my own brain, I think she's good for me. I don't feel I'd be the writer I am otherwise, if for no other reason than self motivation-- After all, caught between listening to myself and listening to someone else, I'm more prone for the latter, so it's my belief in Cassandra that's resulted in a lot of work getting written.

^^; For what any of that is worth. Sorry for rambling.

[climb-on.livejournal.com]

...less of a muse and more of a persistant naggy mental twitch and crazy urge to sit my ass down in front of the computer/a pad of paper and draw until it gets out.

Whatever it is, it won't let me concentrate until I get IT out.

...it always comes during exam time, too. Gargh.

[linzeestyle.livejournal.com]

What would you define "muse" as? If you mean in the sense of my having little sprites physically flitting above my head, then no. But if you mean in the more abstract term - a source of inspiration that seems to come from elsewhere - then yes.

I'm very much at the mercy of a "muse," or outside source of inspiration, when it comes to fancreatives - hell, any creatives. There are times when I'm constantly turning out things, sometimes at a rate of multiple collages or such a day, and there are times - days, weeks, months sometimes - where I cannot do anything. These streaks are very often motivated by some outside thing - i.e., I'm in one right now (though not fannishly; my SV muse is quite gone) that was very much brought on by Rob Thomas' new CD, so in that case I suppose my muse looks a lot like Rob - but it's a mental thing; I don't *actually* get little people dancing around my head. If anything I'm rather fascinated by this; are there people who refer to muses and genuinely mean they're "visited" by something? I'll admit it'd never occured to me that anyone referencing a "muse" was thinking in that manner.

Linzee

[permetaform]

are there people who refer to muses and genuinely mean they're "visited" by something?

yup.

and yeah, discussion here to help figure it out =)

[permetaform]

...less of a muse and more of a persistant naggy mental twitch and crazy urge to sit my ass down in front of the computer/a pad of paper and draw until it gets out.

oh man, I know exactly what you mean, but in regards to vidding...

[permetaform]

::thumbs up and buttprints::

[dragovianknight.livejournal.com]

I for one found that really interesting. I don't have a muse, but I wouldn't mind if one decided to move into my brain.

[ficangel.livejournal.com]

Not a 'muse' in the way that I think it's defined here, because I've never gotten the feeling of any anthropomorphized, independent being, even in my very most creative periods. Sometimes I do hear voices, though (fun and frisky way to find kindred spirits and frighten away all the rest-talk about writing and be sure to mention that little detail), or see certain scenes playing as movies in my head. When those moments come it's a persistent itch of getitoutgetitoutgetitout that will. Not. Go Away. until I comply, but I've never gotten the feeling of divine inspiration, of anything happening outside of me.

And then there are the periods when I'm working on long, long fics over a series of months when writing is a pleasant sort of distraction, but the urgency isn't there any more, or at least can be turned on and off at will. Defense mechanism; I can turn it off or I can go from pleasantly eccentric into the real crazy that sings sonnets to stars.

[nightengale.livejournal.com]

Well don't quote me. Apparently i was *way* off base with the primary example I gave you. Maybe it's just my ego, but i put myself in a majority much more than I ought to have.

However, I never understood the Greek muse idea myself. I mean, if they're just an "inspirational citation," as you said--an excuse to "pin" the inspiration on, perhaps--then why delineate the idea of a muse at all?

I'm *really* wondering about the cultural aspect. Maybe the general source concept of totem animals as protectors/guides could factor in somewhere...?

[nightengale.livejournal.com]

Couldn't that twitch be labeled as a muse in its own right? In short: does the word/concept "muse" have to indicate something external to yourself, or is it a label for whatever reliably inspires you?

I mean...you rely on that tic to create, right? So what would happen if you didn't have it? I'm muse-dependent, and I'll be posting my thoughts soon, but I'm reading through the responses first. I was under a gross misunderstanding, that everyone worked with tangible muses, as I do, and now I'm wondering if the *form* of the muse isn't the point, and the presence, or poking it gives you, is.

Thoughts? Can you work without that self-sourced mental niggling?