huh.

[permetaform]

so. ::peers at friendslist:: Massachusetts.

elke_tanzer has gathered a heaping shitload of links from across her friendslist, which is all for the good.

Bush apparently has already tried to retaliate.

And? For various obvious and sundry reasons I'm pro-marriage, in the idealistic for-love-not-money kinda way that I've been raised and bred in. And my concept of love is all-inclusive.

The anti-gay-marriage stance would make more sense if we still lived in a world where people married only to maintain their hereditary line. But people kinda are against the concept of arranged marriages and marrying for money nowadays...

What I'd like to know is what we Americans think, nationally, about this subject. I know that as a Californian, and as a slash fan, I could only represent my little corner of America. I wonder how much good Queer Eye and QaF have done. I wonder how fundamentalist those religious groups actually are and how far they are actually willing to go. It makes me wonder if they are as fringe as I hope they are.

Thing is, it would be devastating if they were the only voices being heard, with no one to question or challenge their fears with anything more logical. Because the anti-gay marriage feeling is based on fear I think, and:

Fiat Lux, goes Berkeley's motto.

Bring the Light

But to do this, one would need solid arguments. I refuse to sound as hysterically uninformed and illogical as this country's Fearless Leader.

So I pose a question to all of you:

What are some arguments or counterarguments you use in the pro/anti-gay-marriage discussions?

The one that affects me the most goes, "So you're going to be banning marriage between a man and a sterile woman as well?", in response to the nature/God ordained sanctity of a male-female marriage.

I've also been hearing good arguments along the lines of the separation of church and state and the fact that by banning gay marriages, the state is trodding on the rights of some religions/religious subgroups (Unitarian, I think? correct me and add more to the list?).

Other ones? Or recommendations of good posts from your own friendslists?

[speaking of good posts, I recommend ivyblossom's and cathexys' entries on the subject, both of which are lengthy and well thought out]

[edit] semi-relevant article

[edit2] letter from gileonnen to the president on the subject.

Comments

[linzeestyle.livejournal.com]

I was just discussing this with some friends...

My biggest issue, at least for the US, is that we have made marriage a *legal institution.* Bush's biggest argument against it, and that of many gay marriage denouncers, is that it's a "sacred institution between a man and women." This is (and I realize this is a generalization, I'm just ranting, go with it) based in some sort of religious idea of marriage.

Now this would be all fine and good if marriage was only a church-based institution. If that was the case, this would be for the individual churches that perform marriage ceremonies to work out. However, it is a legal institution. We base things like money and custody and property and rights off of this notion of marriage. We hold it of value in society - as a culture, we are brought up believing that regardless of religion or beliefs, marriage is something we want, and the legal system supports this. Because of this, and because of the seperation of church and state (you hear that Bush?!), you cannot legally deny gay marriages. It becomes discrimination. You are denying someone based on their sexual orientation. No matter what Bush or anyone else thinks to be moral or 'sacred' - that is not, and should never be, a factor here. It's not his or anyone's perogative to impose their moral and religious values on anyone else. This is strictly political, and in the United States, discrimination is illegal. Any notion of "civil unions" or "something like marriage" but not is the same as 'seperate but equal' and we already know that can't exist.

/rant. My but I'm in a preachy mood today. *picks up soapbox and wanders off*

Linzee