huh.

[permetaform]

so. ::peers at friendslist:: Massachusetts.

elke_tanzer has gathered a heaping shitload of links from across her friendslist, which is all for the good.

Bush apparently has already tried to retaliate.

And? For various obvious and sundry reasons I'm pro-marriage, in the idealistic for-love-not-money kinda way that I've been raised and bred in. And my concept of love is all-inclusive.

The anti-gay-marriage stance would make more sense if we still lived in a world where people married only to maintain their hereditary line. But people kinda are against the concept of arranged marriages and marrying for money nowadays...

What I'd like to know is what we Americans think, nationally, about this subject. I know that as a Californian, and as a slash fan, I could only represent my little corner of America. I wonder how much good Queer Eye and QaF have done. I wonder how fundamentalist those religious groups actually are and how far they are actually willing to go. It makes me wonder if they are as fringe as I hope they are.

Thing is, it would be devastating if they were the only voices being heard, with no one to question or challenge their fears with anything more logical. Because the anti-gay marriage feeling is based on fear I think, and:

Fiat Lux, goes Berkeley's motto.

Bring the Light

But to do this, one would need solid arguments. I refuse to sound as hysterically uninformed and illogical as this country's Fearless Leader.

So I pose a question to all of you:

What are some arguments or counterarguments you use in the pro/anti-gay-marriage discussions?

The one that affects me the most goes, "So you're going to be banning marriage between a man and a sterile woman as well?", in response to the nature/God ordained sanctity of a male-female marriage.

I've also been hearing good arguments along the lines of the separation of church and state and the fact that by banning gay marriages, the state is trodding on the rights of some religions/religious subgroups (Unitarian, I think? correct me and add more to the list?).

Other ones? Or recommendations of good posts from your own friendslists?

[speaking of good posts, I recommend ivyblossom's and cathexys' entries on the subject, both of which are lengthy and well thought out]

[edit] semi-relevant article

[edit2] letter from gileonnen to the president on the subject.

Comments

[potterwitch.livejournal.com]

Know what? I was thinking about this all a while back. And what I came up with was this: 1) There are more TV shows/actors, films, books/authors and songs/pieces of music/musicians that acknowledge the existence of gay people and are okay with that, and promote tolerance. Now, people of all sexual denominations will read these books, watch these films and TV shows, and listen to this music, and think "Hey, yeah--who cares about sexual orientation?" and so, even if it only happens slowly, the talented authors and singers and actors among those people will write and act in more books, films, etc. It's a domino effect, but I'm not expressing this very clearly.

What I was literally thinking a few months ago was this: We are the ones who will make slash mainstream. I was thinking mainly in terms of the Harry Potter fandom, because that's where I read most of my slash, etc., but it goes for the whole generation. Because so many more people recognise and tolerate gay and bi people, there is bound to be an explosive rise in tolerance quite soon, through our work. Which is a bit of an ego boost, no? ;^)

The arguments I tend to use for same-sex marriage are
-It's not going to affect the straight people who are worried about it;
-not letting gay/bi people marry will not make them straight;
-to my knowledge, all constitutions declare that each human being is equal before the law, and his/her rights shall be the same as every other person; thus, allowing some people to marry who they choose while refusing others that right is unconstitutional;
-while the Bible/Torah/Koran/religious text of your choice may be perceived to denounce same-sex relationships, there is no secular reason to disallow same-sex relationships, and thus civil marriage should not be a problem;
-no matter how sacred same-sex marriage is, even hetero couples don't seem to realise it; divorce rates are on the rise, and one cannot fairly claim that straight couples are more likely to stay together than gay couples.

Love,
-Powee

[babyomlet.livejournal.com]

I agree with that as well. I think the only thing that may not be quite accurate is the use of slash to mainstream it all. There are still people who dislike slash, then again, there are people who dislike porn but still like sex. Yeah, I dunno. lol

I know that Queer as Folk - and in the beginning Queer Eye - made me more tolerant. Not that I wasn't at all ... but I would make jokes about it with my brother and cousin at times and I know my dad does it a lot. At the time it never phased me. I rented Queer as Folk for two reason - Hal Sparks, and to see what all the fuss was. I really didn't think I'd get into it as much as I did. I just thought I'd think it were interesting and leave at that. I rented the first DVD like 3 weeks ago and have already finished Seasons 1 & 2, and am watching the third one on Showtime. It's crazy.

From this, I find that the sexual situations don't bother me. In fact, I'm pretty much enjoying them. I also develop so much respect for the actos who are in these shows for the topics they all address. But also, lately, if my dad makes some joke about homosexuality, I either just stay silent or I'll tsk him in a nice manner. It's strange to say that these shows have done that to me, but maybe that also comes with maturity, because for a while now I've tsked my friends who make racial jokes.

I guess in a way, if something does it, then that's good, because hey, it's changing, right?