request and a rambling discussion

[permetaform]

Does anyone know of where I might find any combination of Spike/Jet/Faye or Spike/Jet? Cowboy Bebop yaoi is freaking rare, and I'm wondering why that is, because the pairings just seems incredibly obvious because actions and dialogue are freaking *random* otherwise.

Is it *because* it's obvious or is it because Jet is not conventionally attractive?

It's a bit odd to me and a bit distressing that it seems that so much is hinged on the attractiveness factor. I'm pretty sure that's part of the reason why Legolas/Gimli is freaking rare compared to the other combinations (and I saw this pairing in the movie despite not having read the books, though I didn't see the Legolas/Aragorn until someone pointed it out). I'm also pretty sure that's why Londo/G'Kar is nearly non-existent which is an awful and tragic thing.

However, knowing that at least part of the whole deal with slash is the 'yay!pr0n!' aspect of it, it's understandable.

Interestingly enough, there's plenty of Snapeslash, despite how he's described as rather ...less than charming... in the books. It's facinating to note the evolution of Snape's appearence, the permutations of his descriptive words, and the near sexualization of ugliness.

Of course one can't discount that appearances are all the in eye of the beholder and it's all relative and such.

But: Snape is not attractive, conventionally; he has sallow skin, a hook nose, and greasy hair and none of these are descriptors used in conveying beauty.

Nevertheless, force of will (both the reader's and Snape's) has rendered him compelling. Ugliness is tranmuted and reformed into something to be admired. Or perhaps even that admiration exists for a qualities which seem to be 'overlooked' conventionally.

Or, and here's a flip-side that'll probably give the rest of you heart attacks to hear me say, but I didn't find Sands 'attractive' for most of the film. The 'pork' scene highlighted the flat qualities of his face and his character was pretty much an ass.

And oh, what an ass he is, compellingly ugly souled, horrendously garbed, petty and over cocky as he counts on ability that he didn't seem to have.

And yet.

And yet, he survived. He still stood, and he showed some scrap of a possibility of redemption with the boy... and my eyes are drawn to him helplessly, ugliness and all.

Yet another example?

Johnny Depp has a slightly asymmetrical face; his nose tilts towards the left. Yet I find myself thinking of it as a 'quirk' and 'eccentricity', despite the fact that for all intents and purposes it's a flaw. But it's a compelling flaw, a lovable flaw perhaps *because* it's a flaw (and how's *that* for a sexualization of ugliness?) but also because it's *him*. And my adoration of Johnny Depp renders this flaw forgivable and loveable, as it is part and parcel with his face as a whole.

(And isn't this simply love? Where flaws are smoothed away, overshadowed, ignored, sexualized, or adored?)

Perhaps this is why Snapefic is so common despite the book's descriptives, we as readers have collectly fallen in love with him and there never was a *visual* aspect to deter us from the beginning. Where in movies and anime there is the appearance first and the situation second and the personality last, in books (good ones) appearance and situation and personality are inseperable and it is *that* much easier for personality and situation to negate the effects of an ugly appearance...

::tilts head and ponders some more:: dunno...your opinions?

Comments

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

My impression of Cowboy Bebop is that it's a largely fanboy-dominated fandom (and yet I've had fanboy friends rant at length about the wrongness of CB slash).

Regarding otherwise -- I've always had a thing for emotionally and physically crippled characters. Something about repression and suffering; I don't know. But I was madly in love with Erik from The Phantom of the Opera when I was younger, before I had my own stalker and my views of the book changed -- but there's a whole fandom built on, I don't know. An act of redemption, the idea of what might have been, maybe, because it's not like Erik was a really nice guy even prior to becoming obsessed with Christine, and he's definitely not good-looking.

I actually find overly 'beautiful,' symmetrical people offputting. I never found Johnny Depp attractive before PotC because he was too pretty, too perfect-looking -- and I still find him attractive almost exclusively when he's Jack, scarred and unwashed and dreadlocked and kind of daft.

I've always felt sort of like an anomaly, because so many of my high school friends liked the conventional, whichever star of the moment is popular with screaming teenies. I find more character in interesting faces; perhaps it's because I spent so much time drawing, and it's much more challenging to draw plain, or ugly, or kind of weird-looking, than Conventionally Pretty.

Dunno.

But I do think that's to some extent true of book fandoms -- expect that, as someone pointed out, the appearance-oriented people will often prettify the characters in their mind. I will never understand all the fanart of Aziraphale as a bishounen, myself.

[permetaform]

it's a largely fanboy-dominated fandom

ahhh. makes sense. I think some anime pimping is in order then...

I've always had a thing for emotionally and physically crippled characters.

Yeah, but what's kinda funny is that I'm more attracted to 'power' and, through that, the concept of strength. Perhaps it's because the strength (in all the best stories) is balanced and enhanced by the weaknesses? Ranma (from Ranma 1/2) is so incredibly defined by his strength (to be a man, to be the best fighter, etc.) but is facinating because of his utter cluenessness emotionally.

And I agree with you about feeling like the anomaly, I never got what the appeal was and it was only Jack Sparrow that had me desperately hunting down an actor. Thing with Johnny Depp tho, is that I still find his face disturbingly flat in certain angles and a bit 'boxy' structurally. And I love the man still, beyond these factors.

As for the book fandom, it could be argued that Aziraphale *is* a bishounen (in it's emotional context, rather than it's literal), but only subjectively. Any artistic rendering is grounds for any number of subjective concepts about the *bishonen* to clash with each other. Technically, Aziraphale *isn't* a bishonen, his is not young, he is not exceptionally pretty. But in the minds of the artists of a certain genre Aziraphale fits in the emotional slot of bishonen (as a well-loved character) and thus is rendered bish on paper.

To some extent, I view the bishonen fanart of Aziraphale as how he looks and feels in Crowley's mind. (::waves C/A flag::) It's how he would look to someone who loves him.

[harukami]

On the Aziraphale thing - I don't really agree. I'm also a C/A shipper, but Crowley is old enough and has known him long enough that I don't think Crowley would look for appearance at all. As such, I think Crowley can look at a middle-age tubby bookstore owner just fine, because what he's sexualizing is a personality.

If that makes sense?

Besides, Aziraphale's quaint. That's part of his charm. If he gets prettified, he's not as, well, Aziraphale. Considering that a major part of Aziraphale's personality is devoted to worrying about his looks... well, that part should be based on something, because Aziraphale worries over real life things, not abstract facts so much. I imagine it's why he's just fine with having an arrangement with a demon, but worries about the hassle when his body dies.

[permetaform]

If that makes sense?

yup! that does, and yeah Aziraphael just kinda fussy and eccentric and detail-orientated because the rest is kinda just 'ineffable' anyhoo...::grins and pets the angel::

it's just...it's like a visual representation of love in the fanart y'know? like the same feeling that goes into the lines of the art and the emotion from which the art arises comes from, the intent more than reproducing reality like rose-colored glasses...

I dunno. I guess it really depends on how you view and prefer your fanart.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

*ponders* Yes, I think it's partly power, somehow (I also have a huge kink for men who know how to use a sword, so, um). I'm not sure. Vulnerability, too.

I don't agree at all about Aziraphale -- he's...quaint, and charming, and sweet, but with a rather hard core under it all -- he can be a scary fucker when he wants. And I guess -- I don't think loving someone causes them to become a bishounen in one's mind. It just means that their imperfections become beautiful. The guy I'm currently quasiseeing (whom I wouldn't use the word 'love' about yet, especially not in the platonic sense) has a bit of a tummy and kind of bad hair and an aquiline nose and while he is what many people would find attractive and knows it, he's not classically handsome. I don't see him as classically handsome in my mind -- I see him as what he is and appreciate that.

And gah, there's already quite enough anime out there without trying to turn Good Omens, which is pretty much the polar opposite of a yaoi doujinshi, into a yaoi doujinshi.

But possibly I am just bitter about all the pretty!Aziraphale fic that twists the characters away from all semblance of the ones I love.

(I don't actually think Crowley is meant to be really handsome, either. Flash, yes, but not necessarily gorgeous.)

[permetaform]

(I also have a huge kink for men who know how to use a sword, so, um).

::grins and stifles comment::

...loving someone causes them to become a bishounen in one's mind.

erm..not so much that as the emotional context of a bishonen. Like Aziraphael takes the position of a bishonen because that's what some artists are wired to do.

Like...hmm...okay, I'm going to try an example here and feel free to smack me if it doesn't work...like how Ringu was reworked into The Ring which was scarier for me than Ringu because my brain's *context* was hard-wired differently. I get more startled by gore and less scared by implication.

In a way I feel like all art has it's place and purpose, and even though a view of a character doesn't fit my own, it's a semi-valid view because it is percieved at all. I kinda feel like the purpose of art is in it's perception, if even by only the artist themself, and it's realization. That even if a perception of something hurts my world-view, there is still space for it because as long as it is percieved it is 'truth' for those percieving.

[zoerayne]

I've always felt sort of like an anomaly, because so many of my high school friends liked the conventional, whichever star of the moment is popular with screaming teenies.

Strangely, as I've gotten older I seem to have "immatured." [g] When I was young and A New Hope was all there was to Star Wars, I was into Han - the anti-hero, the less beautiful of the two main male characters - while all my friends were mad about Luke. I was madly in love with Rod Stewart when all my friends were gaga over Shaun Cassidy. The older I get, though, the more I appreciate the beauty of the "pretty boys." (Though I've always had a kink for androgyny - David Bowie and Adam Ant, for instance.)

As a teenager I never would have found Johnny Depp attractive (and, in fact, didn't in his early films). Like you, it wasn't until PotC that I recognized something appealing in him. Now I can go back and see that pretty in many of his previous roles.

I still find that I'm more into unconventionally sexy guys (e.g., Paul Ben Victor, Alan Rickman, Gordon Michael Woolvett, etc.) than your average fan, but I'm also beginning to enjoy the pretty for what it is (when I can stop feeling like a pervert for salivating over the likes of Elijah Wood et al).