request and a rambling discussion

[permetaform]

Does anyone know of where I might find any combination of Spike/Jet/Faye or Spike/Jet? Cowboy Bebop yaoi is freaking rare, and I'm wondering why that is, because the pairings just seems incredibly obvious because actions and dialogue are freaking *random* otherwise.

Is it *because* it's obvious or is it because Jet is not conventionally attractive?

It's a bit odd to me and a bit distressing that it seems that so much is hinged on the attractiveness factor. I'm pretty sure that's part of the reason why Legolas/Gimli is freaking rare compared to the other combinations (and I saw this pairing in the movie despite not having read the books, though I didn't see the Legolas/Aragorn until someone pointed it out). I'm also pretty sure that's why Londo/G'Kar is nearly non-existent which is an awful and tragic thing.

However, knowing that at least part of the whole deal with slash is the 'yay!pr0n!' aspect of it, it's understandable.

Interestingly enough, there's plenty of Snapeslash, despite how he's described as rather ...less than charming... in the books. It's facinating to note the evolution of Snape's appearence, the permutations of his descriptive words, and the near sexualization of ugliness.

Of course one can't discount that appearances are all the in eye of the beholder and it's all relative and such.

But: Snape is not attractive, conventionally; he has sallow skin, a hook nose, and greasy hair and none of these are descriptors used in conveying beauty.

Nevertheless, force of will (both the reader's and Snape's) has rendered him compelling. Ugliness is tranmuted and reformed into something to be admired. Or perhaps even that admiration exists for a qualities which seem to be 'overlooked' conventionally.

Or, and here's a flip-side that'll probably give the rest of you heart attacks to hear me say, but I didn't find Sands 'attractive' for most of the film. The 'pork' scene highlighted the flat qualities of his face and his character was pretty much an ass.

And oh, what an ass he is, compellingly ugly souled, horrendously garbed, petty and over cocky as he counts on ability that he didn't seem to have.

And yet.

And yet, he survived. He still stood, and he showed some scrap of a possibility of redemption with the boy... and my eyes are drawn to him helplessly, ugliness and all.

Yet another example?

Johnny Depp has a slightly asymmetrical face; his nose tilts towards the left. Yet I find myself thinking of it as a 'quirk' and 'eccentricity', despite the fact that for all intents and purposes it's a flaw. But it's a compelling flaw, a lovable flaw perhaps *because* it's a flaw (and how's *that* for a sexualization of ugliness?) but also because it's *him*. And my adoration of Johnny Depp renders this flaw forgivable and loveable, as it is part and parcel with his face as a whole.

(And isn't this simply love? Where flaws are smoothed away, overshadowed, ignored, sexualized, or adored?)

Perhaps this is why Snapefic is so common despite the book's descriptives, we as readers have collectly fallen in love with him and there never was a *visual* aspect to deter us from the beginning. Where in movies and anime there is the appearance first and the situation second and the personality last, in books (good ones) appearance and situation and personality are inseperable and it is *that* much easier for personality and situation to negate the effects of an ugly appearance...

::tilts head and ponders some more:: dunno...your opinions?

Comments

[d-r-o-n-e.livejournal.com]

I can't put in any commentary on Cowboy Bebop or Agent Sands/OUaTiM, having not seen either.

I think there are a few intrinsic problems with Londo/G'Kar.

One is Babylon 5 in general--the universe is so so intricately thought out and complete, i don't think it naturally lends itself well to fanfic for non-OC characters, personally. (This is not to say that ppl don't write it, I know.) To my mind, it's like Bas-Lag. As a writer, I would feel kind of weird writing serious fic in the universe, but maybe that's just me and what draws me to a fandom's fic potential. Though I could imagine a pile of humorous x-overs--Londo and G'Kar as Pintel and Ragetti is CLAMORING AT MY BRAIN, f'r'instance. :D

The other (and primary) problem that I could pose is, well, their junk. We know canonically that Londo's got six... prehensile somethings down there, and that G'Kar's race is a.) marsupial where b.) the men carry the pouchlings. (I wonder, when Londo used his Whatever You Call a Centauri Pecker to cheat at cards, was that the first alien wang to be seen on TV? & you'd think MPREGgers would be psyched about a canonical ooportunity to do their thing, and be writing Narnfic out the wingwang...but i digress.) Strazcynski's told his viewership rather a lot about how alien their genitals are without actually drawing any diagrams about how things work, and i think smut writers at the least find that really daunting.

I agree with what others have said about Rickman's casting having a huge influence over HP fic and the perception of Snape, particularly the "put on your porny-pants and slide down my enunciation" voice-thing and the "like Oscar Wilde, but skinnier!" nancy wry-but-woe-betidded black-clad passion-plate thing. (Aside: SAVE ME from "Snape goes to Muggle goth clubs in his spare time" fics, please?) Mind you, I'm down with that appeal, but it's IMO all an offshoot of his interpretation of the character. In fact, you could argue that there's a navigable split between people who write book!Snape and ppl who write film!Snape---blurry edges and overlap, of course. (Though, I think you can argue this with any fandom that has both a textual and cinematic aspect, I'd bet.)

However, I don't want to discount the appeal of an adult in a kid's-eye-view universe with a lot of empathy-points: You could read it that he dislikes his job. You could surmise he's short tempered with pubescent adolescents. He is the butt of a lot of jokes, both from students and staff. As early as book 3 you get hints that he had a shitty childhood and was pranked a lot from his schoolmates. I think a lot of ppl plug into those empathy points and want to write fic that explores them, &/or attempts to justify or redeem him as a result. In fact, I could probably write a scholarly thesis on this idea i have that, Snape fans (and Snape apologists) are the same people who empathize with Malvolio in Twelfth Night--both characters are smug, snide bastards with just a shard of something painful and raw that bleeds out just a little and affords others a foothold on making them a subject of ridicule, and both react to that sort of treatment with the same rage.

Eeep, gotta run, going to be late for work! Hope this isn't too disjointed to make sense.

[melusina]

In fact, I could probably write a scholarly thesis on this idea i have that, Snape fans (and Snape apologists) are the same people who empathize with Malvolio in Twelfth Night--both characters are smug, snide bastards with just a shard of something painful and raw that bleeds out just a little and affords others a foothold on making them a subject of ridicule, and both react to that sort of treatment with the same rage.

This is an interesting observation. The main difference for me, is that Malvolio is never (to my knowledge) seen as a sexually appealing figure, while Snape clearly is (at least by fans). Would this change if Rickman played Malvolio? Maybe, but I doubt it, because Shakespeare didn't write Malvolio with the same sympathy that Rowling has for Snape.

[pandarus.livejournal.com]

Fair point - fans have made Snape into a sexually appealing figure, whereas the same can't be said for Malvolio. I think this is because within the context of the story Snape has power over the protagonists, whereas Malvolio never has real power over the key players in Twelfth Night -- right from the word go we see Olivia favouring the fool's advice over his, and see him being mocked and undermined. This isn't big with the sexy.

However, I think it's maybe true that the people who are drawn to Snape because they see him as a bitter underdog with an interesting past and lousy people skills are liable to also give a damn about Malvolio. Now, there are undoubtedly lots of fans who are drawn to Snape because they see him as older, more experienced, more powerful, more intelligent, difficult to win the approval of, and all this equates with sexy and a catch in their heads. I may be off base here, but I'm assuming that for a lot of young girls, that's the appeal -- I reckon it would have been for me, when I was wee. Now, being older, stroppier, more experienced and better educated myself these days, I do still find the character interesting and I'm rooting for him, but it's not because I perceive him as being especially powerful. (...er, although I've got to admit I loved Rickman's duelling scene in CoW, but, hey, it's Alan Rickman. He's a darling, and he does smouldering and pissed off very well indeed.)In the novels, though, I'm acutely aware of his flaws as a teacher, and I don't find this sexy at all. He's not a very good or likeable adult in canon, any more than Malvolio is, and he abuses his power dreadfully. But I do feel some compassion for him, because I'm assuming that something brought him to the place he's at now -- and JKR has given us some indication of this in TOotP, to my considerable delight.

Malvolio is, imho, only a hair's breadth away from being a tragic hero - which isn't to say he's nice, but Lear and Macbeth aren't exactly the most likeable of blokes, when all's said and done -- it's the pathos of their destruction that's the thing, isn't it?

Twelfth Night remains my favourite of the comedies for precisely this reason, actually. What is done to him is exceptionally cruel, and his discovery of it makes the pat happy ending of the play ring almost hollow. Whether Shakespeare's audience would have taken it that way I honestly can't say -- perhaps not. But to a modern reader it's very difficult NOT to get emotionally engaged with the subplot characters. (Might as well 'fess up now that Sir Andrew can just about break me with his 'I was adored once too' moment. Poor dumb bastard. I always cry at the wrong places in films and plays, me.)

[poor-choices.livejournal.com]

Just a big word to everything you said about Twelfth Night. We did that this year, and every time we ran the ending I found myself far more saddened by Malvolio's plight than I did overjoyed by all the loving.

I'm not sure I can see the Malvolio/Snape connection (i.e. relating to Snape because of his horrible plight as with Malvolio) until OotP, because we just don't know enough about what brought him to where he is now. Even if Snape is deserving, it certainly doesn't seem as if what the Marauders do to him is justified, so that brings up a whole hell of a lot more pathos than I'd felt for him in the other books. However, I wouldn't say any of this would make me likely to write Snape pr0n. Although now I have a horrible temptation to write Snape/Malvolio crossover hurt/comfort. So I have to leave before I act on it.

[(Anonymous)]

To me, it is pretty clear why Malvolio cannot be a sexually appealing figure. I consider a person's intelligence a definite part of his/her sexual appeal. You may argue that Snape is ugly and a bastard, but you cannot deny that he is very intelligent. Malvolio, on the other hand, is described as a fool by other characters and behaves like one. I may pity him, but I will never be attracted to such a person.

Sophia.

[pandarus.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Well, I'd certainly agree that I'm terribly intolerant of stupidity myself, and pretty much only fall for people who can give me a run for my money intellectually.

I wouldn't agree, however, that Malvolio IS stupid. Malvolio is held up to ridicule because his value system is different from that of the central characters, and because his vanity leads him into an act of folly.

The spirit of the play is mostly pro-cakes&ale (although Sir Toby, the epitome of this ideology, comes across as a complete bastard) and since Malvolio is conservative and puritanical, the (drunken, dishonest, cruel, manipulative, uneducated) 'heroes' of the subplot mock him consistently. It is notable that the heroes of the main plot do not share this view. Olivia respects Malvolio's intelligence and his value system, even if she is more given over to merriment than is her steward.

Where it all goes hideously wrong for Malvolio is when he lets himself believe that the letter is addressed to him. But this isn't stupid; he doesn't KNOW that Maria can emulate Olivia's handwriting, and this kind of trickery is so far from anything he would ever carry out himself that it just doesn't occur to him that he's being viciously set up. Maria very cleverly plays upon his vulnerability - who among us is so utterly grounded that they couldn't feel a spark of hope if they randomly came across evidence that the person they were hopelessly in love with secretly fancied them back? However staid Malvolio is, he still has dreams and desires, and when these weaknesses are exploited he is rendered ridiculous. But that isn't to say that he's unintelligent.

If your experience of intelligent people has been that they never make fools of themselves, then I envy you! For my part, I frequently make a gibbering idiot of myself, but I am, nevertheless, pretty damned bright.

I'm not trying to put Malvolio forward as a fabulous saucepot, you understand, but it seems to me that his lack of obvious sexual appeal lies in his being ridiculed and disempowered, rather than in an actual lack of intelligence on his part.

Snape as a sex figure

[sabinareborn.livejournal.com]

Well, my attraction to Snape is purely from a psychological/emotional point of view. I tend to go for the underdogs, the morally ambiguous -- Niles, from The Nanny (hey, it was a sitcom); Skinner, from the X-files; Snape, from Harry Potter. Now, Snape fascinates me, but I don't think I'd like him if I ever *met* the guy. I see him as a mean, short-tempered, ugly (yes, ugly) SOB. Sure, he couldnt be that bad, but I dislike characterizations that have him with an adonis body under all those robes -- it's like Movie!Ugly people who are only ugly until they take off their glasses and do their hair. My interpretation of canon!snape is that he's asexual -- or, at least, unintimate. I think he should tell Albus to fuck off, you horny old man; I don't think he'd *ever* touch a student (i.e. draco, hermione); and Snape's world is supported by his perception of Harry and to re-evaluate it now would cause it all to collapse. Curiously enough, only Snagrid sounds moderately plausible to me. But Snape doesnt necessarily have to be a virgin. Maybe he had a few fucks in his adolescence, some one-night stands, some Death Eater victims; but yeah, I'll read about BadLay!Snape, and SkinnyAndBony!Snape before SecretSexGod!Snape

So, what about all the SnapeSlash? Good fanfiction is, to me, allows me to suspend my disbelief enough for me to think it plausible -- and our incredibly intelligent Snape writers are adept at figuring out the psychological and emotional touchpoints that would make it work (i.e. Dumbledore manipulates an young emotional Snape), or speculative backstories to explain the current antagonism (i.e. Sirius and Snape with some sort of sexual history, one using the other, or unrequited feelings, etc) thereby making it in some way "fixable". There are authors who decide what they want from a story and somehow make it work, fitting the characters and the situations to their specifications.

Now, when it comes to Alan Rickman, and his undeniable charm, and voice like velvet, I need no justification to pair him with Lockhart or Hooch or Zabini. Yes, the man oozes sex, I'd take him to bed any day (even if Rickman looks a fair bit older than Snape's thirty-something).

So, without glamorizing anything, Snape is a nasty old git both in personality and appearances -- so I agree that yes, it is his possibility for redemption that makes him so appealing, in part. We want to save him. But we also want to understand him, because we've been given glimpses into his angsty history -- although one must question whether a compassion for the circumstances that led to his current path justify the dark deeds he may or may not have commited since then (i.e. regarding the Marauders, did Snape give as good as he got, and is that justifiable). And, if it's Rickman!Snape, we also want to drag him off and ravish him. But, to me, that's definitely Rickman's influence.

[pandarus.livejournal.com]

Now, I was thoroughly enjoying this whole discussion, and I had a number of fairly intelligent things to say, I swear I did, and then I read

put on your porny-pants and slide down my enunciation

...and by the time I'd finished giggling, my mind was blank. Sigh.

In lieu of intelligent response, how would you feel about me tagging this? Possibly for use in an icon?

[d-r-o-n-e.livejournal.com]

Help yourself! It's always good to know you made someone laugh. Though i'm sorry your train of thought departed in the midst. I see from other comments though that you caught up with it. :D