regarding the 'chan'fic and self-analysis using HP for ref.

[permetaform]

I'm not sure what exactly it is, but 'chan' doesn't interest me, it's not even a 'ewwww gross' reaction more of a 'yawn' reaction even, and I'm not quite sure why.

Do I have a 'chan' squick? Perhaps, but I think it might be tangled with my 'orb' squick (ie. "onyx/emerald/chocolately brown orbs of so-and-so"), which is really more of a bad!fic squick. Then again, also knowing my capacity to read anything and everything in sight, perhaps only a specific *genre* of bad!fic?

But no, because this reaction has happen with widely recced fics. For instance, Daisychain!Draco (which is basically chan) is disturbing to me and I'm not sure I can fully pinpoint why. At least part of it is probably that near all the fun from H/D is due to how the boys are at each other's throats. True, Draco usually gets nowhere and usually loses in the end (unless it's a DracoIsGod!fic), but at least the boy on *some* level fights and the obedience that's displayed in the fic is frankly chilling.

I'm not sure how much of my disgruntlement with 'chan' fic is based on a disagreement in characterization, or with style, or what...and I really doubt that *all* writers of 'chan' write in the same style.

I realize I can just write it off as personal taste, and leave it at that. But one wonders *why*, or at least *I* do, and would try to pick at my own brain to figure it out. Because it's not the father-figure/minor issues that bother me because I'm fine with incest-fic. Could it be related to power-issues? Completely weak characters tend to annoy me...or, rather, a clarification: weak=ignorant. I like babies and fuzzy creatures as much as the next person, which are more 'innocent' than 'weak'...but willfully ignorant? gah. To borrow a phrase, "I do not suffer fools gladly."

I suppose that would fit in with my particular dislike for fics featuring 'orbs', since you tend to get particularly insipid pieces of fic with them...

...then again, the long B/F and SS/RL I've mentioned in a previous post tended to get inspid at points too.

bah. I'm arguing myself in circles. If ya'll have any /input either way about 'chan' feel free to comment.

[edit] atdelphi has wrote a very clear and balanced entry on the subject. In particular:

That's why it's so interesting and arousing and disturbing to read about an encounter taking place in those years when sexual acts can be pure experience, and not a context in and of themselves.

...which might actually hit on something because some of my favorite fics are those where the context is *everything*. ::ponders::
[/edit]

[]

Am curious, in semi-related but separate questions:

What do you associate 'weak' with?
_{Femininity? Innocence? Stupidity? Emotionalism? Losing? Immaturity? Age?}

What do you associate 'strength' with?
_{Winning? Physical strength? Masculinity? Stoicism? Intelligence? Maturity? Age?}

Comments

[lierdumoa.livejournal.com]

I generally associate weakness and strength with cowardice and courage, or with low self esteem and high self esteem. Unless we're talking about specific weaknesses, strengths, of course.

[permetaform]

nope, just 'weakness' and 'strength' in general...because I've found I've unconsciously been classifying them in terms of intelligence and maturity-level...

[ficangel.livejournal.com]

I tend to associate weakness with lying down and giving up. As long as the hero/heroine is fighting their circumstances and trying to find ways out of their situation I can stomach any level of stupid mistakes. It's when they sit down to have themselves a nice little pity party (I'm looking at you, Lana Lang) that I lose interest.

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

Same here. As long as they're struggling, trying to figure out a way to make things better/change, they strike me as strong. Even if it's just mental battling, and they don't do anything to physically alter a situation, I still consider that strength, because some part of them hasn't given up.

[permetaform]

(I'm looking at you, Lana Lang)

::smirks and nods:: totally see this, though with her I'm more pissed with her problem with letting go of the past, but that's a whoooole 'nother debate...

[marquesate.livejournal.com]

Weak:
Shiftiness, no backbone, no convictions, not standing up for oneself, not sticking to one's believes, not having a strong opinion and fighting for it. Being non descript and watery. Not taking one's own stance.

Strong:
The opposite of all of the above plus facing adversity with courage and determination. Being true to oneself.

[madam-h.livejournal.com]

I usually associate strength with a person having the courage to stand by their convictions.

Evy in "V for Vendetta" refusing to give up any details about the identity of V, even though it means torture and death for her. Ah, this story means so much to me and I’ll quote the one piece that gets me every time and just defines courage in my head. From Valerie’s letter:

...But it was my integrity that was important. Is that so selfish? It sells for so little, but it's all we have left in this place. It is the very last inch of us. But within that inch we are free...

...I shall die here. Every last in of me shall perish. Except one.

An inch. It's small and it's fragile and it's the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it, or sell it, or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

There’s courage, holding on to that last inch of integrity. Damn it, I'm crying now. Weakness is bending the knee, giving it up even though you know you're right.

I don't have any real connection between strength/weakness and physical prowess except in a purely practical sense.

[evyg.livejournal.com]

integrity is so closely related to pride, and i hate pride. not saying i don't see the importance of having a strong integrity, but i find it more of a necessity for self-preservation than an actual quality that should be admired. to me, integrity is basically a selfish stubborness, an inability to cope with change and conformity, and sometimes the situation at hand.

...again, not saying there's anything wrong with that, from an individual perspective. i usually disagree with myself in these matters (as an irreconcileable communist and individualist). =)

strength to me is to be able to give up absolutely everything (including your integrity/pride, or whatever it is that you cherish the most), for a good cause, whereas weakness is letting others take it away from you against your will, or otherwise letting them use you. but i don't see integrity as a strength, as opposed to a weakness.

[evyg.livejournal.com]

...although that does bring up the question of what it is that is you. what's at the center of a human being, that one thing that you'd sacrifice anything for (as i put it, self-preservation: what is it that you're trying to preserve)?

if THAT's what you define as integrity (that one quality that is yours and yours only, and separates you from everyone else), then i'm obviously screwed, argument-wise. :P

[madam-h.livejournal.com]

"give up everything for a good cause" - yep, but I would have to add that that includes risking everything when you know that a cause is good (or even that something is just right) even when everyone around you disagrees.

The whole idea of letting people take things away from you against your will is the core of it for me - if you know your Will and let others direct you against it then you've given up a part of your claim to integrity and pride.

*tucks soap-box away*

[permetaform]

::grins:: Slytherin?

I think you have one of the more unique definitions of strengt/weakness in that strength is in the "giving away" and weakness is in the "being taken". huh, very worth thinking about...

[evyg.livejournal.com]

...bleeding Slytherin.

[permetaform]

::glomps:: yer in good company then!

[permetaform]

that quote is wonderful, thank you.

[evyg.livejournal.com]

you might want to read "V for Vendetta" if you haven't already - i'm not a big comic book fan, and even *i* loved it.

[rhipowered.livejournal.com]

I think I'd have to agree with you. I'm highly disturbed by some chan fic; I daresay that Draco's lack of fight in that fic (and the fact that he calls Harry 'Daddy') gets to me.

As for definitions...this is odd...I really can't associate what I think of weakness and strength to any other thing. It's entirely conceptual and varies from subject to subject. I'd think I'd be able to tell you, but I'm finding I can't, save for the fact that strength = the fact that one knows what is the best option and does it, hang the consequences to oneself.

And even that doesn't quite work. Hm.

[permetaform]

hmm, well, what do you find weakness *not* to be? like for instance, I don't associate 'female' with weakness but I sometimes associate 'ultra feminine' with it and even that has more of a 'submit to the male' quality than anything else...

heh, and yeah, the way Draco acts in that fic gets my hackles up in the *worst* way, because it feels very much like he's acting like a 'little lady' and it really pisses me off to see *anyone* acting like that to a higher degree. Is it the same way for you?

[billradish.livejournal.com]

Remind me to come back and answer the 'weak' and 'strength' association thing when I'm not falling asleep. Otherwise I will forget.

[permetaform]

::pokes:: mornin'?

[billradish.livejournal.com]

Right, awake now, thank you. =)

First on the chan thing... It's not a kink or a squick for me but one of those strange, murky areas. I have read and enjoyed a story with one character as young as 11, but I've also read stories where the younger character was closer to 16 - 18 and had issues with the age. Main difference between these stories was the fact that the 11 year old was not only well written...he was pushy. From the start, he'd been portrayed as stubborn and precocious; having friends, interests and talents that were beyond what most of his peers had interest in. He decided he wanted sex and who with, then went after it. Since he was the driving force behind it, I had no problems. But stories with even older characters who act younger (sometimes a LOT younger) and don't seem to portray them as being able to make important decisions.

For me, it's much more about maturity and aggressiveness than age. Also intelligence. I did a poll a while back about bestiality to try and narrow down what bothered most people about it. By and far, the main thing it boiled down to was intelligence and the ability to understand and consent to something.

Now, weakness and strength.

weak = feeble, incapable (and I'm with you on the immature and un-intelligent levels as well, as that ties in with capability, for me)

strong = assertive, capable, stubborn, resilient

[permetaform]

heh, see, the chan thing I think I can tie in with my definitions of weak and strong...I'm iffy on the chan because it usually means a fic where the younger character is highly 'weak' in a sense. What was weirding me out was that I have *no* problem with reading fics with major power imbalances. But if you change the definition of 'weak'... it starts to make sense more.

I'm also seeing that when I say 'chan' I mean specifically those with where characters are immature or unable to make important decisions, because when I read your description of the fic with the 11 year old I was thinking 'oh, that just sounds like a relationship fic'. (funny the way the mind works...)

[billradish.livejournal.com]

So your problem with chan basically boils down to not a power imbalance, but a maturity/intelligence imbalance? Sounds like we're in the same boat. =3

[permetaform]

So your problem with chan basically boils down to not a power imbalance, but a maturity/intelligence imbalance?

Or at least that's a major part of it. ::ponders:: I think your onto something.

I've also noticed in atdelphi's post that part of the draw of chan seemed to be the concentration on sensation and the experience, because the nature of chan means that the younger character probably hasn't had sexual experience or even knowledge of sex and therefore approaches the act with a near "clean slate"; because of that, there's almost no context for the act and the act can't* be a context for something else. The idea of which wierds me out to a major degree in terms of my concept of sex, in terms of a piece of writing that I find erotic, and in terms of a *writer*, where my theory is 'It's allllll about the context'. (well, that and 'write as much in as few words as possible', but that's another story.)

[billradish.livejournal.com]

Might be the same for me...it's not something I notice much, but that doesn't mean it's not important to my brain somewhere.

[marquesate.livejournal.com]

_{What is 'chan'????????}

[lierdumoa.livejournal.com]

Paedophelia fics (I may have misspelled that). Got the whole Lolita thing going on, with an adult and a prepubescent child. Early pubescence works too, I think.

Not one of my kinks. Most people who like to read/write it are not paedophiles themselves (I compare it to lesbians who write m/m slash). It's a bizarre phenomenon of fandom. Tends to crop up a lot in Harry Potter fanfiction.

[marquesate.livejournal.com]

Urgh. *gags* Thanks for explaining to me, wouldn't want to stumble across one. Not my cuppa. *S*

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

The definition of chan I've always heard is post-pubescent, but pre-18. DEFINITELY not pedophilia. Is it something else in HP?

[lierdumoa.livejournal.com]

Huh -- that's interesting.

Perhaps it is something else in HP because the age of consent in England is 16, as opposed to 18, so below the age of consent would in fact be early pubescence.

When permetaform made a reference to "Daisychain!Draco", she definitely was not referring to post-pubescent. In the fic she linked to, Draco is pre-pubescent. Also, I've seen Harry/Snape yahoo! groups centering around chan, and they refer to fic in which Harry is under 16 -- under the age of consent.

If you look at the definition of chan in the veelainc fanfiction glossary, it reads as follows:

chanslash: Let's pull this one apart. The suffix 'chan' is a Japanese term meaning young or innocent. You've probably heard of it being stuck on the end of someone's name as a term of endearment. Chanslash, then, refers to fics wherein one member of a slash relationship is, well, young and innocent. In legal terms this means a child, a person under the age of consent, paired with an adult. Some people say this means anywhere between the ages of 13-18, but I know it goes younger than that, and generally fics with 17 year olds in them are not considered chan. There is a great deal of controversy around the existence of chanslash, and large portions of the slash fandom stays as far away from it as possible.

[permetaform]

Perhaps it is something else in HP because the age of consent in England is 16, as opposed to 18, so below the age of consent would in fact be early pubescence.

heee! I remember back in Smallville fandom where authors were just scrambling to figure out age of consent and statutary rape laws and whatnot for Clark/Lex fic.

I think part of it is my issue with 'mental' age as opposed to 'physical' age...

There's a fic called 'In Memory I' (I got it from beckafics yahoogroups) where it's a non-con Harry chan fic that I actually like, and I think it has to do with how jaded and aged that version of Harry is, and even perhaps because it's non-con, instead of just chan...::perplexed expression and ponders::

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

I see strength as a series of attributes. Most of the characters I write are stronger in some areas than others and these tend to be complementary to the areas the other characters in the group are particularly strong in. So I have more sane/less sane, fighter/thinker, wisdom/spontaneity, etc.

And then I can think of at least 3 important plot point in B7 where Vila (the self-confessed coward) shows himself to be stronger than the others because he works against his fears to save the day.

Gina

[of-carabas.livejournal.com]

Strength and weakness to me usually mean willpower or the lack thereof. Not necessarily the disciplined sort of willpower, but drive, determination.

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that makes sense. And is what I'm usually getting at when I talk about the need for more Strong Female Characters in various media.

Gina

[of-carabas.livejournal.com]

Er, and that was intended to be in response to the original post, not Gina's, oops.

[blackholedebris.livejournal.com]

For me, the core defining aspect of strength/weakness is the will. When you are left with nothing but yourself and your will, is it strong enough to get you through a situation? Even if it kills you physically, as long as you keep that inner core of yourself, and don't allow it to be broken, that to me, is true strength. Weakness is giving in to the thing that would destroy your spirit. That's why I was so moved by the character of Sands in OUaTiM. He had such a horrible, debillitating thing done to him, and yet, he managed to find it in himself to drag himself right back up. I just really admired his spirit.

Another example that comes to mind is Reese Witherspoon's character in the movie Freeway. I don't know if you've seen it, but it truly defines what it is to be strong. The girl has horribly sad and just plain awful things happen in her life, one right after the other, but she keeps going somehow. My favorite quote is when she says: "All I need to live is my will." She's a fighter. 'Til the very end. That is strenght to me. If you haven't seen the movie, I highly recommend it.

[permetaform]

When you are left with nothing but yourself and your will, is it strong enough to get you through a situation?

Ahh, good definition here that I totally agree with, your point about Sands especially I agree with. (I'm also bookmarking this for the movie rec ::glomps:: thankee!)

[blackholedebris.livejournal.com]

It's always good to know I'm not alone in my point of view on a topic. ::smiles:: That way I know I'm not completely imagining things. And your welcome! ::glomps back::

[evyg.livejournal.com]

i'd like to disagree, if i may. what drives Sands isn't strength, but rather stubborness; he's so set in his ways that he cannot accept being overpowered and reduced to something he doesn't wish to be, and thus it is the denial that drives him (the fact that he refuses to see himself beaten, for egomaniacal reasons, even when he so clearly is) rather than any actual power of will - it's like refusing to die, because you think you're immortal, not like refusing to die because you feel you still have strength left. see what i mean?

[blackholedebris.livejournal.com]

I can see what you're saying about his stubborness, but I see stubborness as a particular kind of strength. Sands is not exactly a noble character (heh), but a noble, or moral, quality is not a requirement for being strong. That's where the ego comes into play. While not all egomaniacal characters are strong, with Sands it's tied in with his particular talent for enduring. I might just be losing my mind, but I could've sworn that the one and only time I saw the movie, Sands seemed--after the losing of his eyes--not just pissed or upset, but actually depressed. He was shaken when not much else could shake such a jaded or indifferent personality. But, whether through a sense of revenge or whatever, he found it within himself to keep going. That very quality of still being pissed off--as opposed to just giving up (which a lot of people would do)--and doing something about it, to me, is evidence of a strength of will. It's like, when someone is backed into a corner and is afraid or otherwise distraught, and a voice inside them just screams "No! I'm not just going to lie down and take it!" This made me, by the end, like such an otherwise unlikeable character.

[lasergirl.livejournal.com]

pssst! Robert Rodriguez's first choice for Sands was George Clooney. Antonio Banderas still sounds like a 12 year old girl. I love you and I want to have your babies and we need to write our story now.