vidding and Premiere questions

[permetaform]

Beside "solarize" is there any way to get things to its negative form? Or does one just have to fiddle with the "color corrector"?

Ooo. also, about how long does an eye need to register a shot? I assume one frame is enough, but if you blink it'll be missed...so three frames for buffer?

::goes off to play in Premiere again::

Comments

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

You know, I can't remember how many frames to leave, but it's longer than you think. I feel like 5 frames might be right; I think in pre-digital days we used to have 9 as a rule of thumb, but that may have been our machine.

[permetaform]

::nods:: I'll try that.

[sithjawa.livejournal.com]

I don't know what "solarize" does in Premiere, but if it's just one shot (as might be indicated by the second question), you could export it into photoshop and invert it? Otherwise, there might be an actual "invert" option hiding somewhere in Premiere?

I seem to recall that in photoshop, "solarize" basically changes the color everything above a certain threshold, but sometimes the color change isn't actually inverted but is something else weird, and then you just have to fiddle with it until it gets the exact effect you want.

[permetaform]

hmm, good point about the photoshop. I'll try that.

[luminosity]

1 frame will not really register to the untrained eye. We train ourselves to see stray frames, which are usually 1 frame. For the clip to consciously register, the minimum is about 4. I'm working this problem right now!

Invert *inverts* the colors. It's like looking at a color negative.

[f1renze.livejournal.com]

kitkatbyte: 1 frame will not really register to the untrained eye.
f1renze: it is so obvious to us
kitkatbyte: omg is that why people can't see them?
f1renze: !!!
kitkatbyte: i am scarred for life

[permetaform]

It seems anywhere from 4~9 frames from the other responses...I think 4 frames if it's still and high-contrast?

Invert *inverts* the colors. It's like looking at a color negative.

?

::goes to try to find it again::

frames

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

In Lord of the Rings, when Gandalf first reaches out to touch the Ring where Bilbo left it on the floor, and it flashes the vagina of doom Eye of Sauron at him, that flash is 7 frames (when playing at 29.97 fps--so, like, 5 or 6 at 24fps). I've found that much shorter than that and it can't really be discerned.

I guess there's two questions--a) how long does it have to be for you to know it was there, and b) how long does it have to be for you to be able to tell what it was?

And there's a few things that go into recognition.

If you're putting many short shots in a row, you probably don't want them under about 10 or 12 frames each, or you're asking the viewer to process too much too fast, and it all becomes a blur.

If the shot before is longer, then it's mostly a matter of contrast. If the long shot before is in blue tones, a short shot in orange tones will register in a shorter time. A bright short shot after a long dark shot can be very brief, because the flash will stay on the retina after it's gone (but the inverse is not true of a dark shot after a bright shot--it's the *light* that triggers the eye). If the two shots are almost the same except for, say, one is negative and the other positive, or one is an empty room and the other is the same room with a person in it, then the shot can be shorter and people will see it, because they don't have to process the entire frame, they will be drawn to the difference and see it.

Fight Club has single frames of Tyler dropped in about 4 times. I didn't notice them the first time I saw the movie, though I figured out what they were pretty immediately the second time I watched (after I paused and went back frame by frame to confirm my suspicion!). I read that the critics who first saw the movie complained that the film was dirty--they didn't recognize Brad Pitt, they just thought there was some gunk on the film.

I think in America, anything less than two or three frames (not sure which) is legally considered subliminal (abroad, it's more--a B5 episode had a pseudosubliminal message from psicorps, just longer than the American limit at 4 frames (at 24fps) but they got into trouble with overseas distribution).

The best advice I can give is to take a guess, put the shot in, walk away from it for three days, then watch the whole vid--relaxed, not looking for it--and see if you see it. Or get a guinea pig beta :-)

Re: frames

[permetaform]

ooo, ::glomps:: thanks for such a detailed response! The shots are mostly high contrast (which is why I asked about the 'negative' filter) or FightClub-ish so I think maybe around 4~5 frames? I fiddle around with it some more...

Re: frames

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

*grins* This is something I've experimented with a fair amount. I have about a sixth of my "LotR on crack in three minutes" vid languishing on my drive waiting for me to get RotK and some interest... the Touching Evil vid I finished recently is all about stream of consciousness in a crazy person's brain and, heh. Well. That's where I figured out that how long it needs to be gets longer if they're *all* short.

The other thing to consider is the music you're matching it to. If you have a single beat you're hitting with the flash, then it's not an issue, but if you have two beats in close succession (my TE vid was to a Bowie techno piece with some syncopation) then the flash kind of needs to fall on the first beat, and the cut to the next shot on the second beat, which can make the flash a little longer--but it doesn't look quite right if it's not.

Oh, if you haven't already figured this out--while long clips usually need motion to make them interesting, short clips are better stationary--motion confuses the recognition. (But stills usually don't work for over about 2 frames; I've tried that and you can *tell.* It's very sad.)

Re: frames

[permetaform]

the base beat's somewhat a "BAMPH-pah! bam bam, BAMPH-pah!" And I've been intercutting between two shots so that there's more chance of recognition on the second shot.

And the short clip v. long clip thing I have a shortish clip of 3 frames that has a movement, but I think I have enough short clips before that to perhaps "train" the audience eye beforehand. maybe.

::crosses fingers::

Re: frames

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

And I've been intercutting between two shots so that there's more chance of recognition on the second shot.

*nodding* Did that a bit in the Fight Club vid I'm working on, though second-ish clips. 28 frames or so.

OTOH, I tried intercutting between Aragorn and Isildur in my Lord of the Rings vid that I'm also not working on. That went 12 frames Aragorn, 2 Isildur, 1 Aragorn, 6 Isildur, 13 Aragorn. You know what I found out? Usually 8 frames is plenty for recognition, but you stick one frame in the middle of it from the surrounding shot, and people's eyes glide over it with a vague sense of "what the hell was that?"

Re: frames

[permetaform]

Usually 8 frames is plenty for recognition, but you stick one frame in the middle of it from the surrounding shot, and people's eyes glide over it with a vague sense of "what the hell was that?"

::nods:: I've been getting other responses like that. And it seems that repeated intercuts between two series of shots work better when they're shorter than a chain of random clips.

[halcyon-shift.livejournal.com]

If it helps, there's actually a law you need any clip to be 4 frames or longer, otherwise you're hitting subliminal and, strangely, that tends to be frowned on. So, 4 frames would seem to be the definite 'yep, folks can see that' marker, I guess.

Also, Invert. You can use that to negative along various channels, not just RGB.

[permetaform]

huh, okay.

and is invert in premiere pro 7 too? I can't seem to find it...

[halcyon-shift.livejournal.com]

Ah, Premiere 7 I ain't got no clue on, it's the devil's tool as far as my comp is concerned, sorry. This is probably a no duh, but have you looked all through the help files with it? On v6 they have handy dandy picture examples for the various filters so it's possible the way to do it might be hiding in there some place.

[permetaform]

yeah, I tried the search function and clicked through everything. The only thing that seemed to match was "filter". I'm thinking I may have to mess around with "color replace" or something...

[heresluck]

...about how long does an eye need to register a shot?

I'd agree with previous commenters that 4-7 frames is about right, but I'd also add that the correct number is partly contextual as well. In the Donnie Darko vid (thanks for reccing that, by the way!) the flashy bits at the beginning are 4 frames each (at 23.98 fps -- so more like 5 at 29.97); but they're also in pairs, so the eye has a total of 8 frames of information.

Similarly, the flashy intercutting in the middle of "Superstar" is chunks of only 3 frames each, but because it flicks back and forth 8 times, both images have a chance to register. It's worth noting that a lot of people think I used a transparency of some kind for that bit; 3 frames is such a tiny amount of time that neither image really goes away, so there's a both-at-once quality that can be cool but can also just look muddy and confusing.

[permetaform]

hmmm, makes sense ::hugs:: thanks! ::goes back to fiddle with vid again::