thoughts on a rant - writerly divisions

[permetaform]

Rant on fandom by gwyn_r

I love this whole discussion if but for this comment by morgandown alone:

"We care. But we care like the trippy hippies cared. Like the butterflies care as they float on the breeze. You don't think a butterfly does *not* care if it flies into a spider's web? It does, but until it does, it is perfectly happy floating..... and when it finds itself stuck, with Shelob inching its way closer, the butterfly says: look, there is another butterfly. Oh and a bee....we're all trapped together in this web. Well, that's not so bad, is it? I am after all a butterfly and butterflies are happy."

::wry giggles:: so true::

Though, dude, some of the comments there...::hugs Saiyuki fandom:: stay cool, yes?

Interesting thought occured from reading one of the comments by stakebait: there might be two types of writers (with a huge spectrum of grey area), the kind that can map out a story, whole, in their head, and the kind that has to write their story to be able to see the full story 'cause it changes with the move from head to paper or digital text...and I *think* this might be the dividing distinction between people who "write for fans" and people who "write for themselves".

Or rather, that the people who tends towards "write for themselves" are almost forced to produce the artwork that appears in their head 'cause they wanna know what happens next, or what the vid would look like completed, say. Therefore, posting it is comparatively little effort.

However, if one tends towards being able to visualize the entire product, then the effort of recreating the artwork in physical form for post is entirely "for fans"...which means that such a fan would theoretically be more community orientated and be somewhat more feedback hungry because the cost is producing the artwork and the benefit is knowing that people read it.

Whereas for people who tend to be more that they can't fully visualize the end-product, the cost of producing the artwork is allayed (subsidized?) by their being entertained during the production of the art itself, and therefore feedback is viewed slightly more as icing on cake than would a person who writes "for fans", who would then view it more as payment, or rather, the cake itself.

Huh.

Or, I could be completely off the mark. ::wry grin::

[edit] more clarifications (in a thread in the original post)

Comments

[hazelhawthorne.livejournal.com]

Or, I could be completely off the mark.

No. I don't think you are. I'm the type who has to write things out to find out where they go. If I try to work everything out in my head, it kills the story. Writing is so much fun when you don't know what is going to happen. Sometimes it is more fun than reading a stry by somone else.

I still like feedback, though, but you're right; it isn't why I write.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

If I try to work everything out in my head, it kills the story.
Same here. I've left some WIPs behind because I know what's going to happen and I get bored.

[winter]

Meh. I think there's a large grey area between the two - I can completely visualize some stories, but when I do write them down, they suddenly decide they want to go somewhere else entirely. It happens less with origific, which is why I write so little of it.

[permetaform]

I think there's a large grey area between the two

exactly, I think so too, but it hard expressing this when I was trying to elaborate between the two...and I think that the amount you are one or the other might affect the way you view feedback as either icing or cake. (to extend the metaphor ;D )

[tochira.livejournal.com]

XD Cool observation, actually, hadn't thought of it in terms of everybody being somewhat one way or the other... I'm definitely more of the 'bits and pieces' school, with the screwy twist that I see the ending first, usually. Therefore I feel no overwhelming need to share, but it's fun to post the bits and pieces of my attempts to figure out how I /get/ said ending. (and, it is nice to get thoughtful advice/comments from a few people along the way.)

I've always had a sort of frustrated admiration for people who can map out entire plotlines before they start writing. Even when I manage, within 500 words it's always shot to hell. How do they do it?!? XD;

[permetaform]

I've always had a sort of frustrated admiration for people who can map out entire plotlines before they start writing. Even when I manage, within 500 words it's always shot to hell. How do they do it?!? XD;

::nods:: ditto...the way I've been dealing with this tho is to figure out how to loop it back into the plot within another 500 words or so, or rewrite earlier stuff to foreshadow the change. Unfortunately this frequently meant that I could only produce short fic ::wry grin::

[tochira.livejournal.com]

aha, BINGO. That's why I write short stuff too.

...It kinda sucks to have no problem churning out a ginormous term paper in one go without an outline, but subsequently choke on three consecutive pages of fanfic. (I can make the unfavorable comparison only because I finally graduated, eheh.)

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

The anime fandoms are so much smaller, numbers-wise, but they seem so much more open and supportive. (Now that I've said that watch Flamewar 2005 break out.) That's the second "I feel like I'm writing out in the wilderness" post I've seen from a live-action fan this month.

::hugs yoo::

[permetaform]

actually I don't know if it's just because she's unused to communicating via LJ/internet...'cause I never got that feeling from the fandoms I'm in until near the end when I start drifting into other fandoms. I was almost wondering if it's an emotional fault of my own that the interaction I have via LJ is frequently enough squee for me to feel like I'm in a fandom...then again, I don't think she's a type of person who would play LJ tag-you're-it-type discussions with someone across multiple threads, or hold multiple thread conversations. She mentioned really liked the MLs and I've always just lurked and stayed pretty much quiet in the MLs 'cause the same one or two people where always chatting away and 100 other people or so are just always watching them chat. ::shrugs::

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

Maybe that's it-- where a lot of the anime fandoms started here and are staying here. I know one person who definitely feels like she's yelling into the vaccum though. I love LJ, it's just right for my goldfish-length attention span.

[permetaform]

butterflies!! ::nods:: =D

[sarahtheboring.livejournal.com]

That is an interesting link. I've generally been a write-for-me, share-for-extra-fun sort, though I'm not entirely sure why. Never thought about it. Your explanation makes sense to me, though there may be other factors as well. Huh. Interesting.

[permetaform]

::giggles:: way to apply my economics courses, eh? ;D

[sarahtheboring.livejournal.com]

Indeed.

[sarahtheboring.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I meant to add - I didn't realize that people were so negative about not replying. I'm mildly guilt-tripped and mildly irritated at being guilt-tripped. Since I just put out my works like a plate of cookies free for anyone to take, I don't realize that enjoying a person's work is often not enough. I didn't realize that they need personal interaction too. It feels a little like extortion - "you can have some cookies, but only if you tell me I'm beautiful, and I'm not going to specify this up front." So not everyone who refrains from feedback is a soulless monster treating others like a vending machine. I see works as separate from people, and I'll madly love a person's work without saying a word to them directly. It didn't occur to me that this is seen as wrong. I see social interaction as running on different rules and parameters than sharing art/fiction/etc.; if I don't talk to you (general) it's because we are on different wavelengths or too different to be friends. It doesn't mean a thing about your work, either way. Just as it doesn't mean I love your work if I chat with you about other things. Conflating projects and socializing, frankly, confuses my little brain.

Quite thought-provoking.

[permetaform]

::nods:: I've clarified some more in my reply to the comment below...do you think I should add this to the main body of the post?

[sarahtheboring.livejournal.com]

Makes sense. That's up to you, really. (I was mostly riffing on the original essay, which I probably should've done on my own journal, except that I'm lazy. :p)

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking this is a little more complicated for me. There's the knowing the full story (which I can know, if it's short enough), the writing of it (which I may need to do to get to the complete story, as I don't know what the heck is happening until that first draft is done), the identification of a target audience (oh, this person is going to love this story if I do it this way!), the betaing of the story (did I get anything right, and where did I fuck up?), the final acceptance (I guess this is the best I can do with this right now), Posting (oh, god, no one will read it and it's all horrible anyway so no one will ever, ever like it at all every and all of my work will have been for nothing), and reception (Yay! It got read. Someone read my story! and even better, my person liked it!)

So theres all sorts of things in this beyond the creation of the story itself. There's affirmation of myself by others, my acceptance as a member of the community, and that sort of stuff *along with* the creative endeavor.

[wildelamassu.livejournal.com]

I think your comment is lovely, but the entire purpose of this one is to fangirl your icon.

(Consider it fangirled. ^^)

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Lol! Cool. Glad you like it.

reposted for clarity

[permetaform]

There's the knowing the full story (which I can know, if it's short enough), the writing of it (which I may need to do to get to the complete story, as I don't know what the heck is happening until that first draft is done)

But see, with the first two lines of the comment I take it to mean that you might tend towards the "write for fans" side for short-fic and the "write for self" side for long-fic. I think there's a gradient of that dichotomy (a grayscale?) which everyone slides on, for how much they weight feedback in the production of the final product.

In my post, I was attempting to look at the writing like a cost-benefit analysis; and I'm assuming that the "target audience" step, the "beta" step, "the final acceptance" step, and the "posting" step are all wrapped up under the cost of writing a fic.

I'm suggesting that for people who *tend* to discover the plot/story/syntax along the way, are (in the process of writing the fic itself) being entertained by the story as it slowly appears through the creative process. Thus, being entertained, this benefit allays the cost (or perhaps subsidizes the cost) of writing a fic, the steps of which you've mentioned.

And I'm also suggesting that for people to *tend* to have full and entire stories leap into their heads that this part:

There's affirmation of myself by others, my acceptance as a member of the community,

...is fully carrying the weight of having to allay the cost of writing the story.

Therefore, feedback (and other forms of affirmation by a community) carries more weight for people who tend to have full stories appear in their heads, because they don't have (or have *less*) the benefit of being surprised by the story as it unfolds.

Re: reposted for clarity

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree on the grayscale, but for me, I would flip the two sides. I would say that I wrote short-fic for me -- I can conceptualize it, I can 'see' the outline and feel my way to an ending pretty okay, and feel pretty confident about the story, so I can affirm for myself that the story is good and I did okay with it. Wheras with long stories...not so much. So I need more reassurance with a long story, rather than less; the cost is more to me in this instance, so I want more out of it. And that seems to be the flip-side of what's proposed, but maybe that's just me.

[wildelamassu.livejournal.com]

See, when you've been dating an econ major for three years, you can call 'em from a mile off. *points at you and makes stupid game theory jokes*

Regarding the two types--I think, as I usually do, that it's even less clear cut than it appears. ^^ Anecdotal evidence:

I can see entire plots, when I think of them; it's practically cinematic. Getting them onto paper the way I want is well-nigh impossible, and I end up getting frustrated/bored because they don't match my perfectionist vision.

On the other hand, if I just start writing--i.e, envision as I formulate--things come out the way I want them to, but never say the things I think they should.

Either way, reviews are my crack. The largest deterrent to fandom writing, for me, is the thought that whatever newest thing I've done isn't up to the current par (Talented Flist Inferiority Complex? ^^) At the same time, according to the classifications, I'm writing for myself. *wry shrug*

Perhaps I'm a halfbreed. ^^

[permetaform]

See, when you've been dating an econ major for three years, you can call 'em from a mile off.

::wry grin:: er, I dabble. mom's an accountant, dad adores history, so it's blend of that AP Econ and one class in college. I'm a science major actually (or theoritically...gonna transfer out...)

At the same time, according to the classifications, I'm writing for myself. *wry shrug*

Perhaps I'm a halfbreed. ^^

::giggles and nods:: I think you might be, at that!

_{Kappa! ::grins and runs::}

[sidewinder.livejournal.com]

I think you're definitely onto something with your analysis. I'm definitely a "write for the fans" type. I've been visualizing and playing out little fannish stories in my head, for myself, since I was a kid (and looooong before I knew anyone might actually be interested in READING such things.) The act of writing is rarely really pleasureable for me; it can be a real trial, I often am biting my nails and banging my head the whole time, and I get horrified when I post something and then find a typo or something like that that I missed...all in all it's a lot of agonizing for me, and to go through that and not get any or much reaction in response leaves me feeling, "Why did I bother?"

Whereas when I'm drawing or painting, I don't really know how the end result will come out (even when I'm working from a reference photo.) I love the act of drawing and painting, I find it a stress-relief instead of a stress-inducer. So while I'm always pleased when I get a good response on a piece of art, many of my favorite drawings are ones that didn't get a lot of reaction, that I did only/mainly for myself. And I don't really care if they get a response or not.

So I guess I'm saying it's possible to be both types at the same time, too, just in regards to different aspects of creative effort.

[permetaform]

::nods:: that makes sense. Like, with me I tend more towards being unable to visualize the final product in vids, with writing it's less like that so I tend to produce short stories that has a lowered barrier of cost rather than the epic-y things in my head.

::highfives you:: yay for multi-media fans

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

...unless you're me, who always ate the cake just so I could have an excuse to eat the icing, so the metaphor goes all wonky.

Hmm, I'm middle-of-the-spectrum - when it comes to writing a story, I as a rule don't start unless I know the beginning and the ending (narratively speaking, not chronologically), but the details of the middle get worked out as I go along. And feedback is important to me, or I wouldn't post, but I've written stories out in full and then sat on them for a while without posting, so...it is true that when I'm starting to get out of a fandom, feedback becomes more important to me, while as when I'm first in love with a new series I'll start ficcing even if I don't especially want to get involved in the fandom, just to get the ideas out of my head.

Looking at the replies, I wonder if it might be, not the visualization exactly, so much as the act of creation in itself...if you enjoy the act of writing, not the inventing of stories but the actual process of putting them to words, then writing the story is its own reward and feedback is 'icing'. While if you're a storyteller, someone with a story to share, but the mechanics of writing are a trial, then feedback, knowing that you've shared those ideas, is crucial. Which accords with your model, since very few people could 'visualize' word-for-word a story longer than a drabble in their heads. But a story-teller could have a complete story in there that they're trying to put into words, while to a writer the words are the story, and until they're written there's no story at all...

--er, and not to totally fangirl on you, but you bring up the most awesome discussion topics, I love fannish analyses ^^

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

I'm gonna be the exception to your theory:P

See, I visualize the whole story in my head before I write it. And then I write it because the pressure of having that whole, huge story in my head is painful to the point of headaches and seriously distracting me from RL. And when I get the story? I write it how I visualized it. I've had a few commentors tell me I didn't like this part, this twist, I didn't like that twist. So? That's the plot twist, scene, character I saw.

Actually, I would think that the method more conducive to write-for-fans would be the people that *don't* know how their story ends, because then they're more receptive to meta discussions and other people's input. When I'm in the middle of writing a story, I don't want to do meta. I'll do it with readers reading after I've posted a part, analyzing just that part, but I won't discuss my ideas for the ending, for the next bit, etc. Not till it's done. And obviously, I won't change what's coming just because a reader has the impression that something else is coming. Which, to me, would be a writer who writes for fans, really. Any writer that sticks to the story *they* want to write and doesn't write the story someone else wants them to is writing for themselves.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

hmm, not to jump in, but I was wondering about an alternative interpretation of this theory in the comment above, and you present good evidence for it. I think what it might come down to is what one is getting out of the writing experience versus the posting experience. If the writing is enjoyable in and of itself, then the feedback is less important than if the writing just a means to an end for the writer. In your case, it may not be the writing is enjoyable so much as a necessity (and I know exactly what you mean. do you lie awake until 4 AM because your brain will not stop plotting your latest story, too?) But the key is that you are writing for the sake of writing, while another person may be writing for the sake of telling a story to their fandom. This doesn't necessarily mean that they'll be listening to others' ideas or suggestions; they might very well be telling the exact story they want to tell, just the way they want to tell it. But their reasons for doing so are more slanted toward the desire to tell and share, rather than the creation of the work itself.

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

and I know exactly what you mean. do you lie awake until 4 AM because your brain will not stop plotting your latest story, too?)

*points to severe eyebags and Post-It and pen kept by bed*

And actually, I'm glad you jumped in because I think you put it better than I do. Upon further reflection (i. e. not the last couple minutes before work), I doubt that how a writer works really has too much of a connection to what their goal is. I mean, just look at the matching possibilities. You've got what seems to be a million different ways to work, even if you generalize, and only two goals: write for you, write for others.

Anyway, why should it matter whether you're telling it for yourself, or telling it for others? Why this almost elitest sense (and I convict myself of it sometimes) that a 'real' writer only does it for themselves? Hell, I tell stories to myself all day--boring classes, anyone?--and I get as much enjoyment out of those as I do out of the fanfic I write. It's just a different kind, same as it's different speaking to your sister and speaking to an auditorium of people, though the speech may be exactly the same.

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

To clarify--it's not so simple as having the plot in your head and discovering it as you go. I've had people tell me they write all the dialogue first, then fill in the background stuff. I've had people tell me things like you, where they don't know the middle. I've had people start with just one scene, somewhere in the middle, and then figure out where the story went and had been from there. Actually, that's how I work with short improv pieces. The story begins with a word and a fandom and sort of spirals outward from there. Then there's the people that start out knowing the ending and then keep jumping backward in timeline as they write until they get to the beginning--I think I've read about at least one prominent detective-novel author working like that. So you can't just diagram it as simply as whether you know the whole story when you write the first part, or whether that knowledge comes later.

[devikun.livejournal.com]

Sorry to butt in, but I agree. I'd venture to say writing is a technical skill (for most people), not necessarily a gift or talent. Sure, you can be naturally good at it (as you can be naturally good at anything, but even Motzart had to learn how to play the piano, right? I bet Le Nozze de Figaro sounded pretty good in his head at the time, but did he write it down because he wanted generation upon generation to be able to enjoy it after he was gone, or was he just trying to work out whether that should actually be a B sharp or a C?)

Anyway, my point is, thinking is natural, but writing requires training. Physically articualting something so that it is as good as the thoughts in your head requires that you apply yourself to a medium with rules and restrictions and this application can be easily a private thing that no-one ever sees because it is purely for the self. I think the act of posting is inherently for the community in that sharing it with others is nuturing to both the fandom and the self.

(ummm....butting out now...)

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

Incidentally, I think everyone's glossing over the fact that this all depends on how hard or easy it is for someone to *write*, which I don't think is a related factor to simply how they go about doing it. For me, the process of writing is relatively easy due to a combination of elements--I can set aside large blocks of time in which to do it, my mind has a strong visual component (therefore, easier to plot energetic scenes), I type fast, and my English grammatical and stylistic skills are at the point where I've internalized them, so I don't have to think about the mechanics of structuring a sentence. I can just get to writing it.

All of the above could also be present in someone who comes up with the story as they go. And I'm sure that out there are people who come up with stories either way and have a tough time with the process of writing. Idea creation and idea translation into media are two entirely different sets of skills, in my experience.

[lurkerlynne.livejournal.com]

Or rather, that the people who tends towards "write for themselves" are almost forced to produce the artwork that appears in their head 'cause they wanna know what happens next, or what the vid would look like completed, say.

Or to get it *out* of their heads. I fall into that category. ^_^

I get a picture in my head of something and, being unable to draw, havta write it down to get it to leave. Of course, this has led to further pictures and then I have the joy of trying to connect Picture A to Picture B.

This (http://www.livejournal.com/users/lurkerlynne/2005/01/13/) is the latest- Looney Tunes meets the Magnificent 7 in glorious slashy fashion. It pretty much wtote itself. At work, no less. *headdesk* I so did not need this in my head...

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Ooh, interesting! Thanks for expanding on this. The funny thing is that I've always considered myself in the "write for fans" side of things, since I cannot finish anything unless I know someone will want to read it. Hence why I take a lot of requests, and why fanfic, with its built in audience, is easier than original fic for me emotionally. The thing for me is that quantity doesn't make much difference. It's the fact of having one reader engage with what I was trying to say, whether they liked it or not. That's enough to pay my "costs", and after that while I would obviously be thrilled and grateful if 47 people liked it, it's not 47 times more helpful, if that makes any sense. It's gravy.

[permetaform]

The thing for me is that quantity doesn't make much difference. It's the fact of having one reader engage with what I was trying to say, whether they liked it or not. That's enough to pay my "costs", and after that while I would obviously be thrilled and grateful if 47 people liked it, it's not 47 times more helpful, if that makes any sense. It's gravy.

::nods:: as you can see from some of the other comments, there's a varying measure of the 'costs' of producing fanwork too, so it really all depends; like for instance, if you aren't a native speaker the costs of writing fanfic is higher than a native speaker's would and so on, very neat stuff to mentally chew on. =D