vidding and POV

[permetaform]

[post provoked by tartanshell's post here; I've written a subsequent post here]

So: Point of View in vids.

[edit: definition via Dictionary.com here, "The attitude or outlook of a narrator or character in a piece of literature, a movie, or another art form."

...I am referring to POV as a vehicle of vidding logic as used by a vidder, NOT to it's appearance or lack there-of in a vid, and not referring to possible POV of the vidder themself, which I label more along the lines of authorial intent. Major apologies for lack of clarity on this topic the first time around.]

Is it really necessary? (regaring the use of it by a vidder in the process of constructing a vid) 'Cause yanno, everyone makes POV out to be a big deal and yet if you ask audiences I bet that about 50% of the time more or less they get it wrong anyways, and yet the vid *still* works.

And if the vid still *works* despite the POV not being discernable, is point of view necessary in the creation of it? Tricky thing here is, of course, that about 90% of the detail and craft (? I don't know a better word for this that might sound less pretentious) in a vid is subconscious. There was that analogy awhile ago about fic-writing being like leading a blindfolded audience down a tunnel so that they might get to the end and then see the light. Dude, vidding? Vidding is like hurtling your audience down a black tunnel on a runaway train going at 100mph; most of the details that make the ride the most effective aren't even conscious; which, hell, no wonder most people are stumped while leaving feedback.

But that's another discussion.

Granted, POV *might* be inherent in vids just because of the nature of the music and the way most people listen to it. There's usually one singer and the POV is usually assigned to that one singer; but can't the vid be structured around something other than POV?

Is, then, POV just an organizing methodology?

'Cause I wonder too, if this methodology of most vidders is the best thing to have and/or advocate. And I use that term because organizing vids around a POV, for all it's usefulness, still simply a method, and thus still simply arbitrary. For all the usefulness, sometimes, of setting a specific POV for a vid, it's not really useful in the construction of semi- or completely omniscient vids. And it doesn't cover most non-narrative vids; it can't really help the character study, nor the meta vid, nor the multi-fandom vid, nor the mood vid, nor the movement vid.

'Cause not only are these vids based on different, but equally valid, aesthetics (which doesn't necessarily mean that the vid doesn't *work*, it just doesn't work the same *way*); but the process of organizing these types of vids around a defined, grounded, singular POV might possibly hurt them. In some ways I think that was part of why I was so completely frustrated with and destroyed over Gravity, because it was essentially a mood piece for my micro-fandom, or rather a mood vid with emotional arc. It's essentially a failure if you judge it in strict narrative guidlines, which for a long time I couldn't see beyond; and the only thing that allowed me to finish Gravity was by repeatedly giving up narrative and pretty much vidding in total abject despair of a decent product.

If nothing else, I think that, for me at least, I don't need a POV in the construction of a vid...but what I *need* is that end-reason or an end-goal or an end-feeling; that unshakeable *something* that is at the heart of a vid, and as long as that core reason is there, then I know how to structure the vid to get there. Because, see, for the most part I am assuming an audience at full rest and thus whatever vid I'm doing needs to take the audience to that end-reason. For The Fragile it's the feeling when Corbin shatters at the element pedestal, and they both get re-made into the weapon. For Lucky You it's that creeping shiver when the kid tells you it wouldn't end. For Sunburned it's the implosion of all effort and all color into empty grey. I'm not sure that the POV is so necessary as this knowledge of where the vid must go. [edit: on hind-thought I think what I'm getting at here is author intent]

Which is both a depressing realization and an invigorating one all at the same time; because even though it means un-learning and re-thinking my vid conceptualizing process, it means that there's more styles of vid now, to explore.

which: w00t!

[edited in multiple places on 7.8.5 for clarity]

Additional thoughts: Vidding without a POV doesn't mean that the audience can't bring a POV to the vid; it just means that it's constructed without one.

Second post here.

Comments

[miriam-heddy.livejournal.com]

I suspect that one of the problems with thinking about POV in vidding is that many writers of slash (and there is some crossover between writers and vidders) only have the foggiest notion of POV as something that should be consistent.

Many writers, in a strange attempt to replicate television (or perhaps because they are more influenced by it than by written fiction) write from a hoppy and skippy POV that shifts every line or paragraph, and don't even notice it as a problem.

Meanwhile, people doing the filming of a TV show will carefully decide on shots and reaction shots, on whether the camera is on the speaker or the listener, etc.

I think the problem comes only when the vidder, like the fanfic writer, attends not at all to POV, assuming that a lack of methodology is the same as intentional omniscient POV (and I'm not suggested that you do this, just that it's frequently done in both writing and vidding).

[permetaform]

worth pondering, will think on this =)

[lierdumoa.livejournal.com]

I find that most viewers default to omnicient.

In the case of alternating POV:

Hmmm, can't tell whose talking, but it's saying pertinent things about characters. Must be the vidder is telling me something from a narrator's POV. Omniscient.

In the case of female singer for male character:

Hmmm, well, it can't be the first person cause the voices totally don't fit, but it's saying pertinent things about characters. Must be the vidder is telling me something from a narrator's POV. Omniscient.


Or, you know, people don't think much when they watch vids. Or do anything, really. I know I don't. I'm more likely to go -- the narrative is not obvious, ergo there must not be one! The pov isn't obvious, ergo there must not be one! The point isn't obvious, ergo there must not be one! Or I might not even make those statements, because them being complete sentence and all, they require conscious thought. And thinking is haaaaaard. I'd rather be reading gay porn.

:P

I generally only get things if the vidder makes them obvious or if the conclusion a vidder uses the kind of logic I would naturally use myself so I *think* she/he's making things obvious. Occasionally I'll get the point even when the vidder doesn't exactly use th kind of logic I would use, and then I feel smrt like whoa for figuring it out.


All of my vids have a definite singular POV -- in *my* eyes, anyway. I don't know about how the viewer sees them. That's not because anyone told me to vid that way. I worry that I told people to vid that way inadvertently by assuming they all vidded like me.

It's an eternal worry, really. I assume people think like me. I find out that they don't. I angst over the possibility that I made them feel like their way of thinking was less valid then mine. Aaaaaaangst, I tell you.

I think in POV when I'm vidding. I do the same thing when I'm writing. I tried writing in omniscient once and got the response from a beta: "It's like you're writing in POV and switching back and forth between characters without warning."

Even my One Piece ensemble vid idea is going to be constantly switching POV's from character to character w/ each "I" line because I'm telling a story, and I don't know how to tell stories omnisciently. Who a character is to me depends on who other people are to that character. If I love a character, it is because of the love I see in that character.

Which is to say, how can I not love Sasuke when HE LOVES NARUTO SO MUCH?


I'm looking back and thinking about my response to that post in vidding and realizing that I really only responded to half the post. I focused on what vidders can do to get an audience to percieve a specific thing, but never addressed what it might mean for the vidder and for the vid if the the audience doesn't get what the vidder is trying to get across. As you mentioned, the audience so often doesn't, and for the most part, it doesn't hurt the vid that they don't.

But then, I think any organization technique a vidder uses is more for the vidder than it is for the audience. The audience just isn't thinking as hard about my vid as I am.


On a partly unrelated note, I sompetimes put POV statements in the summary of my vids. I think I need to stop doing that because I don't want to be telling viewers how they should watch my vid. The only reason I put them there in the first place was because I assumed that bit was obvious from watching it, and saying whose POV it was would hopefully help the viewer make a decision on whether or not they wanted to watch it.

But everything is obvious to me in my own head. And now I have vidder's guilt for inadvertently trying to tell people what they should be thinking.

OR maybe I shouldn't feel guilty for doing that, because you put a quote at the beginning of your vid to make the point clearer, which isn't all that different from putting hints in a vid summary, and I never saw anything wrong with that when you did it.

khaleesian figured out that my TF&TF vid was a giant flashback because I put in the summary that the vid was in Brian's pov and so she watched it with that in mind. I can't help feeling like I was *cheating* somehow by pointing that out.


Hear that? It's the sound of me spazzing out for no reason. Again.

[permetaform]

I think in POV when I'm vidding.

...yeah, I really think I don't; not unless I'm in beta stage. And I'm not talking about audience response here, but about conceptualizing/organizing principle.

I think audience can bring their own POV to a vid; but I'm not so sure that it's needed in the initial stages of vid construction. At least for me. More later. =)

[tiggymalvern.livejournal.com]

I don't really think about POV much when it comes to vids, which is funny because I bitch mightily about those fics where it skips around.

Vids to me are a highly emotional medium rather than a strictly narrative one. I think because of the visual nature, I do view vids as more like film or TV where POV is very fluid. Is that a bad thing? I honestly don't know. But a lyrical/mood fit for me is much more important than the source of the vid's specific thoughts.

[permetaform]

But a lyrical/mood fit for me is much more important than the source of the vid's specific thoughts.

Yes! Exactly! And that's how I tend to write too, via striking the emotional core instead of attempting to nail down POV or plot.

[nightengale.livejournal.com]

I am like, way, way, way, offtopic here. But I saw your starfish thing on the sidebar of your journal, and thus, have my own to share:

It was a chilly, overcast day when the horseman spied the little sparrow lying on its back in the middle of the road. Reining in his mount, he looked down and inquired of the little creature,

"Why are you lying upside down like that?"

"I heard the heavens are going to fall today," replied the bird. The horseman laughed.

"And I suppose your spindly legs can hold up the heavens?"

"One does what one can," said the little sparrow.

*is going to go rewatch After Midnight just because she loves it, and you reminded her, and now that she's acutally *seen* 15 & 16, which she hadn't before, it's probably gonna whip her in the face even harder*

[permetaform]

dude, am so behind on replying to the fb on that, will do after tuesday

[linzeestyle.livejournal.com]

To be honest, generally speaking I find it easier to vid at least partially with a POV -- it narrows down the sea of clips that exist in any fandom into two colums: can and cannot use; and it helps me organize what would otherwise be an absolutely horrific mess of thoughts. But I can see where POV can be crippling -- it's something I have to play fast and loose with, especially lately, in order to get my ideas across at all.

POV is actually something I've been thinking about a bit with the video I'm working on now, Wind Up Girl -- after finishing it, I went back and watched it and realized that while for all intents and purposes it's Lex's POV (there's an "I" and a "you" and by conventional vidding standards, that gives it a direction it's coming from) I don't see the video as first-person Lex. The song doesn't sound like Lex -- it sounds like the town of Smallville. Likewise, I repeatedly use scenes involving Lana that Lex wasn't privy too...and yet to me, at least, it works. Granted, I don't consider Wind Up Girl a "serious" video, and admittedly were it something I was actually making for an audience that wasn't myself, I'd probably stress more about whether or not the POV was clear. But on the whole, I think POV in vidding tends to be more of a guess-and-check. Because vidding is such a visual medium you can get away with things -- but at the same time, because there's only the visual without the aid of "he said," "she said," or convenient astricks to seperate POV changes and the like, it can get tricky to say the least.

And I'm babbling. Computer woes have fried my brain. *G*

Linzee

[permetaform]

::nods:: and definately, thinking about POV helps most vidders...just, it kinda stalls my vid until I ignore it.

[sidewinder.livejournal.com]

I think when I was vidding, I was generally more interested in creating a "mood vid with an emotional arc", as you described, than agonize over strict POV. And I think that that can be just as valid a kind of vid, because I agree that a lot of folks in the audience aren't obsessing over POV unless it's the kind of song that dictates a strong, singular focus.

[permetaform]

unless it's the kind of song that dictates a strong, singular focus.

Yes! And I think that the parts of the audience that does think alot about POV is just going to naturally assign one anyways. =D

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

It's weird, but I rarely consider POV when making a vid unless I'm doing something unusual with it. This doesn't often happen, and even after 17 vids, I have never made one that switches POV. Not to say I *wouldn't*, if the song demanded it. I think I'm just not drawn to songs like that.

I'd say that the majority of my vids have a single-character POV, but that that's determined by the pronouns used in the song rather than anything I'm doing especially consciously. If the song says "I", then it's in that character's POV. If it's "we" or "he" or "they", it's omniscient. Usually. *g* "Wouldn't It Be Nice" is the most obvious exception -- it's a first person plural song, but the POV for the vid is omniscient, and I think the fact that it's a multi-fandom vid is what makes this comprehensible.

(Which makes me wonder if vid POVs can be broken down even further: first person singular, first person plural, third person, omniscient -- how would you distinguish a third person "he" in a vid from an omniscient "he" in a vid? Someone smarter than me needs to weigh in on this!)

OTOH, as a *viewer* I often find myself paying way more attention to POV than I do as a vidder, I guess because it usually takes me a few seconds into a vid to understand what the vidder's trying to do -- in those initial seconds, one of the first questions I ask is "Whose story is this?", and POV seems to follow naturally after that question.

I have to say that I think a strongly-defined POV is important, because a lot of viewers get lost if the vid lacks that kind of specificity. I get twitchy when a vid seems to flip haphazardly around between two or more characters' points of view, if the "I" lands on multiple characters seemingly randomly, and so on. Who's speaking? How do I understand the story you're showing me if I don't know who's telling it?

[lierdumoa.livejournal.com]

Oooh, more food for thought!

OTOH, as a *viewer* I often find myself paying way more attention to POV than I do as a vidder, I guess because it usually takes me a few seconds into a vid to understand what the vidder's trying to do -- in those initial seconds, one of the first questions I ask is "Whose story is this?", and POV seems to follow naturally after that question.

I find I do the reverse. I'm very concerned with who is thinking/saying what in my vids. I see someone else's vid, I get a general sense of what the vid is saying about the character(s) and don't really worry about where the insights are coming from unless for some reason I find myself disagreeing with them.



Which makes me wonder if vid POVs can be broken down even further: first person singular, first person plural, third person, omniscient -- how would you distinguish a third person "he" in a vid from an omniscient "he" in a vid?

Ooh, tricky.

Is the thought one a character would have about him/herself (third person limited, then) or one that the vidder is having about the character in a meta context (third person omniscient, maybe) or one that a fellow character would have about that character (second person twice removed???) and the viewer makes a best guess?

Have to ponder this more.

[permetaform]

but I rarely consider POV when making a vid

Yes! This exactly! Whenever I start thinking about it my brain explodes; I can't use it as an organizing principle at all...I'm guessing that I use mood instead.

I have to say that I think a strongly-defined POV is important, because a lot of viewers get lost if the vid lacks that kind of specificity.

With this, I wonder if it's lack of a clear vision for where the vid's going? Because a vid's trying to take one from pt. A to pt. B; and as sisabet said, POV is usually the vidder's mechanism for it. But does this really have to be the case? 'Cause if you can get from pt. A to pt. B without using the logical construct of a POV, in a clear and concise way, doesn't that make the method equally as valid?

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I don't have a brain explosion when I think about it, it's just something I don't seem to need to think consciously about -- the song gives me everything I need. I should say: my first vid, "Tell Me", has some POV problems which were pointed out to me. After learning what was meant, though, I don't think I've really had to think about it when making my own vids.

'Cause if you can get from pt. A to pt. B without using the logical construct of a POV, in a clear and concise way, doesn't that make the method equally as valid?

Theoretically, yes, it's just that I have a hard time imagining what a vid that did that would look like. (: You may not consciously consider POV when you vid, but that doesn't mean your vids don't use it well anyway.

[permetaform]

After learning what was meant, though, I don't think I've really had to think about it when making my own vids.

And thus you don't use it as a logical construct, which is exactly my point. =D

but that doesn't mean your vids don't use it well anyway.

yes! or that it's contributed by the audience

it's just that I have a hard time imagining what a vid that did that would look like.

Sunburned, my Hero vid =). I did no POV work or POV thinking or POV logic while making it, it played no part in it's construction until I finished it and sat back to look at it and found something that I could call it a POV of.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

As sisabet says, your Hero vid has a POV. You may not have thought about it, but it's still there.

I'm not sure what you mean by "using POV as a logical construct". My not having to think about POV is simply because the song does it for me. You may not intentionally work with POV in your vids, but your vids still all have a POV, regardless of whether or not they are narrative, or whether or not they play around with time.

[permetaform]

merg, I really should continue this discussion after I'm less with the having a megalomaniac's song on repeat...and vidding two trigger-happy people. Wanna take a gander? Any and all comments are welcome, I mostly been thinking about POV with this vid in mind.

I mean about the construct thing in that I don't consciously use it when vidding; that while it might or might not be there, it does not define the order of the clips. It does not bear on the conscious, deliberate logic of the clips during vidding.

Gah, I'm probably explaining this bad again, umm...do you know about the theory of the Dominant? How all art have a sort of formulism and at one point or another the Dominant shifts?

Like for a long time, poetry wasn't considered worth crap if it didn't rhyme or if it wasn't in rhythm or if it wasn't a certain length. These are all types of a Dominant, that determines how one concieves of a "good" piece of art...and here I'm mostly trying to say that a "good" vid isn't necessarily a narrative vid. And by considering the narrative in the vidding processes Dominant it's overlooking the potential of other vidding styles.

This doesn't make narrative vidding less valid, it just makes it a bit less primary...and I seriously think that non-narrative vidding may not have been the best it could be, because they were trying to be narrative vids, and failing.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Eeep, sorry not to reply more quickly!

I'd love to look at your vid if you still want to show me. Email me today with download info.

Last time round about POV: I think POV doesn't define the *order* of the clips so much as *which* clips one uses. Have you considered it from that direction?

I'm mostly trying to say that a "good" vid isn't necessarily a narrative vid. And I agree with you. But non-narrative vids still have points of view.

[permetaform]

I'd love to look at your vid if you still want to show me. Email me today with download info.

=D You shall be post-production beta! =) tell me if it looks okay on a mac?

on the POV thing, I'll have to think on that a bit more, I think

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Got your email. Checking it out now...

[jackiekjono.livejournal.com]

I think some people (like me) don't use words well to differentiate between character POV and editorial POV.

I think it should be possible to make a really good vid without paying close attention to character POV but, if you are trying to convey a point about character A, it's probably a good idea to make sure the audience realizes that you are making that point about character A and not character B.

Maybe I should be calling that something other than POV.

Words hate me.

[permetaform]

heh, words hate me too...I've had to edit the post for clarity, 'cause what I'm referring to in the post is using the concept of a POV as an organizing logic to a vid. And the fact that I was totally unable to start on auction-vid until I literally gave up on the POV; and everytime thereafter I tried to organize via POV I ended up hating and scrapping the product. (the first draft you saw was actually about the 5th draft that I actually made)

Do you mean editorial POV as the POV of the vidder? o.0

And what if making a point about whatever character is only coincidental? 'Cause I'm using trying to make a point about a character or a mood, and I can pretty much count on my audience to fill in whatever narrative they want around it. Come to think of it, that's pretty much how I write fic...

[jackiekjono.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. That is very interesting.

It could just be that I had an idea of the original concept before I started watching and looked for things that supported it, but when I watch this vid I see a very clear first person omniscient narrator who happens to be the only character in any of the movies who shares the editorial POV. Character A is like this. Character B is like that.

I hadn't realized it before, but I can see how trying to do this from either of the main characters POV would have been a real butt kicker.

[permetaform]

I hadn't realized it before, but I can see how trying to do this from either of the main characters POV would have been a real butt kicker.

::points at icon::

dude, just be thankful that I *like* putting myself into all sorts of vidding pain. XD

[girl11.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to sneak in and say how much I love reading your vidding meta posts. I'm working on my third try at a first vid (^^;;) and I don't feel right participating in the discussions with so little experience, but they've really helped jump start my brain a few times when I've been stuck. So, um, thanks.

<.<
>.>
*flee!*

[permetaform]

! ::glomps:: hiya!

If nothing else, poke your head into vidding discussion to get stuff clarified, yanno? Or if anything, just poke me in comments or email; it might take me awhile to figure out a response but I'll do my best. =)

And yeah, take all advice and meta and discussion with a grain of salt. How others vid might not be how *you* vid, and THAT's what matters; be careful of advice that might not work for *you* and follow your instincts 'cause that's where your best work will spring from.

[girl11.livejournal.com]

Heh, the whole how-should-I-vid thing is where most of my problems are coming from - I can't get the right balance between planning ahead and just doing what feels right while hoping it turns out shiny. ^^;;

And thanks for saying that I can poke you with questions. I'll keep that in mind for if I ever really get into trouble. ^_^

[permetaform]

Heh, the whole how-should-I-vid thing is where most of my problems are coming from

::wry grin:: I don't know if this is any sort of condolence, but I don't think that question is every really answered. Or at least I, personally, have never stopped asking that.

I can't help thinking that the right balance is different for every vid, especially if your vid ideas are very dissimilar.

And honestly sometimes I throw things onto the timeline just to see if they work, usually there's *something* in that random splooge that catches my eye and then I try to figure out why it works and how to repeat it. Contained chaos, yanno?