Conclusions in The Great Will Debate...

[permetaform]

The original Debate thread

In process of being discussed/updated...erm, and contains Elizabeth and Jack musings too...

last updated around 10:30, PLEASE point out redundancies and points of disagreements...(ie, the questionmark next to Will's confidence,..)



Agreements:

Will in a fantasy world
Will has a strong childside
Will as a computer geek
Will is competent in his field of knowledge
Will's field of knowledge is a bit limited at times
Will being a dumbass sometimes
Will being young
Will growing up throughout the movie
Will is illiterate
Will's confidence(?)
Elizabeth is ruthless
Elizabeth is pirate-y
Elizabeth is adaptable in pirate situations
Elizabeth is a romantic
Jack is on Jack's side
Jack doesn't like to get his own hands dirty
Will is able to learn
Will is sheltered emotionally
Will realizes Undead Pirate
Will is rash
Will is emotionally suppressed by the established hierarchy.



Differences:

How rash IS Will?
Degree of Will's suppression by the established hierarchy
Piracy-Justifiable in the end? (would matter towards Will's view of pirates at the end)
Degree of growth in the movie
Will's competency
Will's confidence(?)
Will has logic/common sense


Trigger Paradoxes:

definition: an action that would definitively prove a characterization one way or another that is non-canon; ie. if Jack pulled the Trigger and shot Will in the smithy.

Shooting Will, y or n?
Will telling Elizabeth (in cave) he loves her
Elizabeth knowing that Jack is a pirate when she first wakes up
Will being nicely dressed at Jack's hanging


Sequel theories:

Elizabeth turning evil



Note: ok, I HAVE to study for my math final (::kicks linear algerbra books::), so I'm AWOL until about...4 pm (Pacific)? that should give jaida and cali time to come back from lunch and get settled.

In the meanwhile, feel free to leave your thoughts on the matter.

Comments

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

Okay, the thing you have to understand about someone being the first mate of a ship is that their duty isn't just to assist the captain or play compliment to him, heck, that's the quartermaster. Their duty is to take over the ship if the captain dies. That's all. And in terms of having a first mate, the best idea isn't always to make it your best friend.

Sure, Bill might have been Jack's's most trusted friend. He might have been his lover. But the thing is, and this is just the way I write him in order to make it make sense knowing he was not the first mate or the quartermaster, say he was more talented on the side of the physical, of winning bouts of swordplay more than winning matches of chess, it would be rediculous to make him first mate of the ship. Sure, the Pearl would fall into the hands of someone that knew how much Jack cared for it, but if that person couldn't hatch the sort of schemes to keep the treasure coming in and the crew from being arrested her days on the water after Jack's death would be very, very short.

For my thoughts on Jack and Barboss and the mutiny, see this post: http://www.livejournal.com/users/musexmoirai/12241.html?thread=69585#t69585.

Barbossa as a first mate, however, makes total sense. The man is a splendid pirate. His rather nasty personality doesn't make him any less of a great tactician. I have no doubt he and Jack used to be pretty close, perhaps always in a "I nag you you nag me we're happy" way (even if they were buggering each other), but no doubt companionable enough in their time. I can't really see Barbossa ever being Jack's father figure, however, they're too much brotherly, or loverly, whichever way you want to color it, playing "Who's got the bigger dick" all the time.

Anyway, and this is the problem with a lot of Will/Jack fics, your first mate *isn't* always your best friend. Or your lover. Your first mate is the person best suited to take care of your ship and your crew if your head gets blown off. No less, if sometimes, perhaps, depending on the pair, something more. Sometimes there isn't a first mate on the ship, sometimes the quartermaster just takes over and runs the ship until a new captain can be voted into place. (This is how I feel Barbossa runs his ship, with Bo'sun as the quartermaster and no first mate, as there's no one else constantly at his side but Bo'sun, and Bo'sun takes over the running of the ship when the battle is over).

[permetaform]

yes! THANK YOU for mentioning the first mate thing. And I totally agree with you on the Barbossa/Jack dynamic, possibly one of the only reasons that Jack's "Your funeral." line actually stopped Barbossa from slitting Will's throat.

However, for some reason I see them now almost pranking each other on the ship, or at least getting into MAJOR one-upsmanship competitions.

[ash-night.livejournal.com]

"And I totally agree with you on the Barbossa/Jack dynamic, possibly one of the only reasons that Jack's "Your funeral." line actually stopped Barbossa from slitting Will's throat. "

That's brilliant. Damn. Now I need to somehow conspire my way into seeing the Pirate's movie again just to retest my flopping fish theory and try to gain another.

[ash-night.livejournal.com]

"Okay, the thing you have to understand about someone being the first mate of a ship is that their duty isn't just to assist the captain or play compliment to him, heck, that's the quartermaster. Their duty is to take over the ship if the captain dies. That's all. And in terms of having a first mate, the best idea isn't always to make it your best friend. "

Ahhh... Okay. Thankies very much. That clarifies a lot of ship ranking hierarchy mechanisms that I could never fathom or understand before. Hmm... In light of this new information, whether or not the Barbosa as a father figure theory will survive in my own mind is a bit uncertain. Let's let that one sizzle in the back of my mind for a few days.

Yes. I love your explanation of pre-marooning Black Pearl politics. Barbosa is definately able to be a fantastic pirate captain. Hehehe. *soft spot for Barbosa* (Loved the actor in Shakesepeare in Love.)

I agree with the last paragraph of your Jack's Mutiny explanation, but not quite so on the long paragraph before it. But I can't pin down why, unidentifiable personal preference maybe? It's the romantic in me, isn't it? The one that says: It'll be so beautiful if Jack inherited the Black Pearl from his family and blah blah blah blah blah.

Hmmm... That was an exceptional enlightening post! Thank you! Hehehe. Now I know the difference between a quartermaster and a first mate. :)

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

The quartermaster and captain have pretty much equal power, think of the quartermaster as the civil leader of the ship, he has final say in deciding punishments, and he's the one who divies up the loot and leads the landing parties. The captain is the military leader of the ship, he decides where they're going, what they're going after, and when the ship enters combat with another ship, the captain is the sole person in charge. This would be Barbossa and Bo'sun in the movie, or Jack and Gibbs, meanwhile AnaMaria is Jack's first mate (this is made clear in the junior novel but not in the movie itself).

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

Well, save that she clearly takes over the ship when Jack falls behind.

[ash-night.livejournal.com]

AnaMaria and Jack.

They have a lovely dynamic between them. I think I turned into sappy fan girl at the end of the movie in which AnaMaria gives Jack his jacket and says, "Captain Sparrow... the Black Pearl is yours."

There are *such* possibilities with the fandom!