![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Assumption: Will does not have his head on straight what with his Elizabeth obsession and Jack just has tons of failsafes, emotionally, in place.
So why Jack/Will?
Because of the miffed way Will said, “I suppose you didn’t deserve that one, either?” and his face when he said this.
Because when Will appears after the Interceptor explodes, one of the first faces who turns to look is Jack, *after* which you get a shot of Elizabeth going “Will!”
Because of Will’s look in the cave scene when Elizabeth and him was interrupted, kinda a lowering of the eyes, like masks falling back into place and the way he says, mechanically, to Elizabeth ‘you should be getting back to the Dauntless’.
Because of the look on Will’s face when Jack implies in the last scene that something happened with Elizabeth on the island, (said it’s not going to work out with Elizabeth), and Will looked downward, a bit sad?, in response and because of his subsequent sideways smile when Jack said nice hat, and Jack’s pause at saying nice hat, and Jack’s not taking advantage of Will to improve his legend more.
Legend you ask?
Jack is very conscious of his own legend, which he made himself and aggrandizes, (“you will always remember this day as…”). The whole point of that speech just before he fell was to create a distraction (never mind that he’s distracting them with *himself*) so that he could escape and Jack boosts his own legend at the same time. He gets in the faces of the Governor of Port Royal himself and the Commodore responsible for wiping out most of the pirates by that time, sideways also giving himself an out with Norrington ("look, I'm on *your* side, not the whelp's"), also to show that they’re buddy buddy. He increases his legend in the same way with Elizabeth, he basically saying, in front of a group of *soldiers*, "sorry, turned *you* down", thus increasing his own image as a playboy. And then he gets to Will, a hero-type-person whom he mentored, with the blood of pirates and with‘pirate’ tendancies, and for whom he has loads of teasing saved up for, and what does he say?
nice hat.
And, this the thing that convinced me actually, is the way that they are just, settled already into each other's space, physically, habitually, and gramatically.
Will intrudes in Jack’s physical space as much as Jack does his, and Will usually holds this space around himself, even with Elizabeth until the scene where she steps into the circle of bayonets as well, which is the only other time that Will is that in sync with someone else’s space. Will manages to keep up with what Jack’s speeches, he finds the loopholes in Jack’s reasoning, and understood him, up to a point, the cave scene when he steals the coin and about the honest and dishonest men. And in the bit about the “hair…from my back”, where Gibbs looked satisfied with the explaination, Will still looked unconvinced. The only other person shown to be able/willing to second-guess Jack was Norrington, who was actually outwitted twice (commanderring the Interceptor, and the last skeleton battle) and Barbossa. Incidentally, those are also favorite pairings. But I'm not trying to argue that here, so. Back to the Jack/Will.
In the beginning, there was somewhat more of a mentor-student dynamic going on, but it progressed to, if not entirely equals, then to a more equal footing. Will is pretty much one of the few, if not the only, who could keep up with Jack. This is noteworthy because, ok going into Jack analysis here, Jack *forms* his own personal space.
Jack, with all his motions, encourages people to lean away to give him space and to give themselves space so that they could watch him. Notice throughout the movie his interactions with people, there’s like a space created for him, and he *controls* it because
1) he forces people to make room for him and
2) because he encroaches into other people’s spaces.
He basically has control of the space at any given moment, people that try to control it instead are either tangled up (i.e the first scene with the redcoats and jack), obstructed (barbossa), or swatted away (ie. the cave scene, with bo’sun and various pirates). Will somehow manages to maintain staying in Jack’s personal space without getting tangled up himself and getting in Jack’s way. The only other person who held his own against Jack’s manipulation of this personal space is Norrington, but this also caused Norrington to try to outmaneuver Jack to disastrous results. True, this may be simply that he’s mirroring Jack. Then again, he doesn't mirror Elizabeth until the last scene. And in the bonfire/rum scene when Elizabeth and Jack were mirroring each other, it got on the far end of cliché, and there was tension yes, but awkward tension. Note how far Elizabeth had to lean to settle into Jack's shoulder.
Perhaps there’s no thick and sizziling tension between Jack and Will, but there doesn’t need to be because it seems like its somehow already resolved, like there’s already understanding and they’ve been married for ages and the slash goes right under the gaydar.
You could say, then, that this is just the pirate form of the buddy cop movie.
Then again, we've already seen where they've taken the buddy cop movies…
So why Jack/Will?
Because of the miffed way Will said, “I suppose you didn’t deserve that one, either?” and his face when he said this.
Because when Will appears after the Interceptor explodes, one of the first faces who turns to look is Jack, *after* which you get a shot of Elizabeth going “Will!”
Because of Will’s look in the cave scene when Elizabeth and him was interrupted, kinda a lowering of the eyes, like masks falling back into place and the way he says, mechanically, to Elizabeth ‘you should be getting back to the Dauntless’.
Because of the look on Will’s face when Jack implies in the last scene that something happened with Elizabeth on the island, (said it’s not going to work out with Elizabeth), and Will looked downward, a bit sad?, in response and because of his subsequent sideways smile when Jack said nice hat, and Jack’s pause at saying nice hat, and Jack’s not taking advantage of Will to improve his legend more.
Legend you ask?
Jack is very conscious of his own legend, which he made himself and aggrandizes, (“you will always remember this day as…”). The whole point of that speech just before he fell was to create a distraction (never mind that he’s distracting them with *himself*) so that he could escape and Jack boosts his own legend at the same time. He gets in the faces of the Governor of Port Royal himself and the Commodore responsible for wiping out most of the pirates by that time, sideways also giving himself an out with Norrington ("look, I'm on *your* side, not the whelp's"), also to show that they’re buddy buddy. He increases his legend in the same way with Elizabeth, he basically saying, in front of a group of *soldiers*, "sorry, turned *you* down", thus increasing his own image as a playboy. And then he gets to Will, a hero-type-person whom he mentored, with the blood of pirates and with‘pirate’ tendancies, and for whom he has loads of teasing saved up for, and what does he say?
nice hat.
And, this the thing that convinced me actually, is the way that they are just, settled already into each other's space, physically, habitually, and gramatically.
Will intrudes in Jack’s physical space as much as Jack does his, and Will usually holds this space around himself, even with Elizabeth until the scene where she steps into the circle of bayonets as well, which is the only other time that Will is that in sync with someone else’s space. Will manages to keep up with what Jack’s speeches, he finds the loopholes in Jack’s reasoning, and understood him, up to a point, the cave scene when he steals the coin and about the honest and dishonest men. And in the bit about the “hair…from my back”, where Gibbs looked satisfied with the explaination, Will still looked unconvinced. The only other person shown to be able/willing to second-guess Jack was Norrington, who was actually outwitted twice (commanderring the Interceptor, and the last skeleton battle) and Barbossa. Incidentally, those are also favorite pairings. But I'm not trying to argue that here, so. Back to the Jack/Will.
In the beginning, there was somewhat more of a mentor-student dynamic going on, but it progressed to, if not entirely equals, then to a more equal footing. Will is pretty much one of the few, if not the only, who could keep up with Jack. This is noteworthy because, ok going into Jack analysis here, Jack *forms* his own personal space.
Jack, with all his motions, encourages people to lean away to give him space and to give themselves space so that they could watch him. Notice throughout the movie his interactions with people, there’s like a space created for him, and he *controls* it because
1) he forces people to make room for him and
2) because he encroaches into other people’s spaces.
He basically has control of the space at any given moment, people that try to control it instead are either tangled up (i.e the first scene with the redcoats and jack), obstructed (barbossa), or swatted away (ie. the cave scene, with bo’sun and various pirates). Will somehow manages to maintain staying in Jack’s personal space without getting tangled up himself and getting in Jack’s way. The only other person who held his own against Jack’s manipulation of this personal space is Norrington, but this also caused Norrington to try to outmaneuver Jack to disastrous results. True, this may be simply that he’s mirroring Jack. Then again, he doesn't mirror Elizabeth until the last scene. And in the bonfire/rum scene when Elizabeth and Jack were mirroring each other, it got on the far end of cliché, and there was tension yes, but awkward tension. Note how far Elizabeth had to lean to settle into Jack's shoulder.
Perhaps there’s no thick and sizziling tension between Jack and Will, but there doesn’t need to be because it seems like its somehow already resolved, like there’s already understanding and they’ve been married for ages and the slash goes right under the gaydar.
You could say, then, that this is just the pirate form of the buddy cop movie.
Then again, we've already seen where they've taken the buddy cop movies…
no subject
Hmmm... On the scenes you mentioned:
Because of the miffed way Will said, “I suppose you didn’t deserve that one, either?” and his face when he said this.
He just seemed to be giving Jack snark, in this scene. I didn't read much anything into it besides that. Because Jack had been making so many excuses, and he was pre-empting his excuse that time because he was expecting it.
Because when Will appears after the Interceptor explodes, one of the first faces who turns to look is Jack, *after* which you get a shot of Elizabeth going “Will!”
In Elizabeth's defense I must say that Barbossa had just suggested to a lot of pirates that they should have their way with her and she was likely taking a moment to catch her breath in the respite of them having stopped groping her and feeling a bit too addled to respond immidietly. Jack was not in such a comprimised position that he needed recovery time.
Because of Will’s look in the cave scene when Elizabeth and him was interrupted, kinda a lowering of the eyes, like masks falling back into place and the way he says, mechanically, to Elizabeth ‘you should be getting back to the Dauntless’.
I agree that there were masks falling back into place, but this is because Will realizes that Elizabeth is engaged, then, with the clash and the moment to let his thoughts come together, and feels suddenly it's not his place to tell her he loves her. When Jack comes and tells him he just missed his opportune moment, Will only looks mournfully after Elizabeth, barely sparing a glance to Jack (http://kimera.shadow-dancing.net/potc_832.jpg).
Because of the look on Will’s face when Jack implies in the last scene that something happened with Elizabeth on the island, (said it’s not going to work out with Elizabeth), and Will looked downward, a bit sad?
Well, yes, but Jack just implied he might have gotten it on with his girl, and Jack's sheer mack is rather intimidating to live up to. I think that was more of a "Did the girl I love flirt with that man or worse!?" moment. While Jack is flouncing about in that scene, Will and Elizabeth pretty much spend the whole time ignoring him and staring lovingly into each others eyes with the lovey feeling of unity they've stumbled upon.
Well, the "Nice hat" bit we all seem to have different opinions on, but I do think it was a rather friendly quip, in terms that Jack didn't feel he had any impression he needed to leave with Will.
no subject
Have to disagree here, the two fight as a unit *very* effectively, throwing that bar back and forth to each other, that scene where Will hits the guy with the bar and Elizabeth finishes him off with a kick, especially. The two fight as a unit with as much coordination as Jack and Will do.
And in the bonfire/rum scene when Elizabeth and Jack were mirroring each other, it got on the far end of cliché, and there was tension yes, but awkward tension. Note how far Elizabeth had to lean to settle into Jack's shoulder.
I think the awkwardest thing about it was Elizabeth was playing him and therefore not responding to his mack in an understandable way, and as for the space, I don't think he was gauging depth perception very well at that time. I think he also had a moment of realizing she was not as drunk as she should have been with as much rum as it'd looked like she'd drinken when he stared at her bottle a long time, but then was too sloshed to care and kept drinking anyway. Hopefully we'll see the cut scene before that with them chatting on the beach and drinking, because I've seen shots of that and the script of it is in the JN and that part is very cute between them.
no subject
as you've wrote here:
It was just that she didn't have Will with her on things and couldn't seem to get him to go along with her that fustrated her, rather childishly herself at the time, I'd add.
Will doesn't go along with her on things, His body positions before were facing her, but curved away, as if he was afraid to touch her. In the cave scene there was *still* this space between them when they were talking, and it took the last scene for Will to mirror Elizabeth in her closeness to him.
You're probably right about the rum scene tho, but I didn't know there was a cut part, and yeah, hopefully we'll get it in the dvd
no subject
umm, actually, that happens in alot of the buddy cop dynamics, I made a comment on this up in a previous thread in this post I think, that it's partly the very same fact that Will get's in the way that makes the dynamic so interesting to me. ie. the competent guy v. the comic relief. For example, Rush Hour or Bad Boys both have this dynamic, and the leads usually pass the roles of competent/incompetent around a bit or in different ways. MiB for instance, Jay (Will Smith) messes up occasionally because he's new but he's more competent in the area of social interaction than Kay.
What we have with Will and Jack is that his dynamic is taken and then totally shaken and mixed up. Jack is the more experienced one, but is also the comic relief *and* the master plotter. Except when he *isn't*, like how he was unlucky with the jail lock and how he came in on a *sinking* ship, and how he managed to get himself thrown in the brig.
After all, Will did have a certain habit of ruining Jack's plan almost to the point of oblivion.
...and this makes me wonder a bit if your views of Jack are a bit unrealistic. He mucks up his own plans just as often as he gets himself out of messes, and at least part of the time he doesn't even know *himself* what might happen next.
but I do think it was a rather friendly quip, in terms that Jack didn't feel he had any impression he needed to leave with Will.
and you don't think this strange? Knowing Jack? friendly just doesn't mean the same thing to him, what with the betrayals and the bayonets, keeping his cards close to his chest and whatnot. Jack *is* random, but NOT arbitrarily random. Think Hamlet, the differences between when Hamlet was 'acting' random to seem insane and when others *thought* he was random because they didn't get his references. Almost all of Jack's statements make sense if you have the full picture, like the 'honest' speech or the But why the rum? outburst.
"Nice hat?" yeah...umm...
especially after rewatching that scene roughly 10 more times now, and scanning it scene by scene, especially with Jack's expression just then, it's not a casual goodbye.
As for the other scenes, I think it might be one of those subjective things. ::hands you slash glasses and grins:: I'm not quite sure as to your beef with Will but, oh well.
Oh! incidentally, while I was scanning that last scene frame by frame I noticed something interesting:
When Jack started on his, "Well, we've all come to a very good place..." speech, Elizabeth was looking at Jack until Will kinda tugged on her hands and then they did their whole, staring soulfully into each other's eyes.
Now, this could just be that Keira forgot herself for a moment and Orlando was just keeping her on track. But! I think there's fuel for fic somewhere in there, eh? ::grin::
no subject
This is true, but I think when things go that wrong for Jack he just knows to expect a miracle. He has impossible good luck, really, and if that miracle is Will or something totally unrelated to Will isn't a key worry to him, I don't think. In the movie, it happened to be Will.
He mucks up his own plans just as often as he gets himself out of messes, and at least part of the time he doesn't even know *himself* what might happen next.
This is true, but when he's mucking up his own plans he's conciously changing course, 'that didn't work, try another tactic'. Jack's still always in control of what Jack does. This doesn't mean that he doesn't have a specific end goal in mind, it just means he's doing whatever's most convient towards it at the time. When Will steps in and mucks things up, he's an element Jack can't necessarily control, which is entirely different from redirecting your own plans. Instead of getting him closer to his goal, as that behavior does, Will has the chance to ruin Jack's ability to reach his goal entirely. Just because Jack is stupendously good at bootstrapping and in fact has adpoted it as the whole and sum of his method doesn't mean that he's not headed towards the same end goal the whole time.
and you don't think this strange? Knowing Jack? friendly just doesn't mean the same thing to him, what with the betrayals and the bayonets, keeping his cards close to his chest and whatnot. Jack *is* random, but NOT arbitrarily random.
I don't think it was strange. I don't think it was arbitarily random, either, but this is addressed better further up above this. I think it's giving Jack too much credit to say he doesn't have his moments of just tossing people things because he feels like it. He's a free spirit, so that option isn't really denied to him, either. He's not quite operating on a system.
Heh heh, that's true, I always thought it was Will kind of going "Hey, are you okay with this? Doing all right?" but it could be Kiera missing her cue, too.