::rubs forehead::

[permetaform]

...

huh.

okay.

need to come clean now methinks because this is gonna make my brain explode if I don't sort this out for myself

namely, that: I'm still a fan of Jack/Will.

there, I said it. And it's not that I don't see what's to be seen in Jack/Norrington, but. yeah. Browsed and picked at some marvelous fic here and there and still. dunno.

It's not like I don't see the possibilities. But. It just doesn't *ping* in my head. Like, I see the Jack/Elizabeth and Jack/Anamaria. But that's not going to make me hunt down fic.

and I don't quite understand it. Because I *get* it, I can see it too. I just don't *feel* it for some reason. It's like this weird hole where you kinda sense that there *should* be some emotion but there *isn't*.

It's a very freaking odd feeling. And I don't get why I'm feeling this way.

It's not like I don't like adversaries or opposites or equals, I do. ::points at pairingslist:: It's not like I don't find Norrington adorable, and even if he doesn't exactly mush my 'hotness' buttons, neither does Bobby (I-Man) or Legolas or Q or Agent Smith or Xander.

So. I'm not getting this. Just to let you know. Even despite reading the reasonings on everyone's journals.

and let's put myself even more on the weenie roast:

I'm not a fan of Sirius/Remus either.

sorry.


[edit] ::headdesk:: ok. I have gone back and bolded the pertinent parts of this post that are apparently being skipped over.

::facepalm:: people. I *GET* Jack/Norrington. You are singing to the choir here. Also, I *LIKE* adversarial relationships and relationships of equals and opposites. Also, personal asethetics has NOTHING to do with my pairing preferences either way ::points at character list in post:: I LIKE some pairings were I feel no lust at all for one character or another.

Though. ok. I realize that this post may have put the Sparrington people on the defensive. I'll give you that. but, dude. Singing to the choir here. I get it. I just don't understand why it's not *pinging* for me on an emotional level based on my previous pairing inclinations...

[edit2] also: to clarify, I'm *not* objecting to the fact that there's J/N discussion. but. perhaps, not too much to ask that the J/N rhetoric cover more ground than what I'd already covered in the post itself?

[edit3] Figured it out! YAY!

Comments

[ponderosa121.livejournal.com]

Yay for Jack/Will! <3

[permetaform]

::grins::

[tacks.livejournal.com]

Dude, you're allowed to not necessarily go for J/N! Sirius/Remus I do love but that's because it's just the most canon and obvious and has lovely angsty sides to it. Also I just heart Remus something fierce. *grin*

But it's sort of how I feel about Jack/Will -- I would never object to it because it's so there already. I am a SLATHERING Jack/Will fan! The first potc fic I ever read was an J/W/E OT3 ficlet. I think because the first proper long fic I properly read was a Jack/Norrington it forced my eyes open to the posssibility of that pairing I hadn't really considered before and I fell for that, (plus, I cannot resist the Commodore!) but straight after I dived into the fandom I was onto Jack/Will too. I'm always reading that on the side. Basically, if it's got Jack in it, I'll read it. *is fangirl* lalala.

But, is it you I said to about Jack/Will being my 'Jack takes a cabin boy' thing? There's something about the ages and the pretty and the way they come together at the end of the film and that look Jack gives Will when he doesn't know quite what to say at the end and...yeah. :D
J/N is more for opposites and posibility and fitting together and clashing and sharing and...yes, things I don't need to get into because you know; Jack/Will is fun and has the chance for something very fierce and makes my tummy squee; and Jack/Elizabeth is delicious and sparky and, since she is the character I could most identify with, a lovely little Mary Sue kind of imaginary thing.
...Okay, now I look weird. *bites lip*
Do you get what I mean? I lovelove her character anyway, because she is GRATE, but there is also this lovely little element with her being the most like me out of the cast. It's a idealistic sort of thing. Though it's not like the chemistry they had is off putting. They were always my Het OTP.

Yes, I do always end up having about three OTPS per fandom. Shut up. *grin*

You know, I just want Jack, I think. *laughs* It's sort of similar with Remus; I've read every pairing under the sun for him. (omg Draco/Remus. Really. *nods)

And I've blathered.

[permetaform]

::hug:: hey, I enjoy that blather I'll have you know!

[maymorning.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's compulsary to like Jack/Norrington! I don't get that either, probably because I saw "Coupling" and the person playing Norrington is still a silly comedy person to me! Jack/Will, mmmmm. Now that I can see. (Mind you, I can't really "see" Sands/El, as you know, so.....)

[permetaform]

(Mind you, I can't really "see" Sands/El, as you know, so.....)

hee! but yeah, I think I havta see this 'Coupling' I keep on hearing about...

[permetaform]

::hug:: and a lovely two cents they are!

[winter]

Welcome to the club. I guess that I can see the way Jack and Norrington would interact that would present the possibility of the pairing, but it leaves me totally cold - I can read it in fics by the best writers, but my brain just says "what-ever, moving along". Consequently, I'm afraid I just don't read those fics at all now *sighs* While Jack/Will... let's just say I like the combination of "world and slightly evil" with "spluttering innocent" ^___^

And for the record, I'm perfectly happy with my Sirius and Remus as friends, though won't say no to a torrid love affair :P

[permetaform]

"what-ever, moving along". Consequently, I'm afraid I just don't read those fics at all now

yeah, and it's kinda depressing to me because I *know* I'm missing out on alot of good stuff...

[potterwitch.livejournal.com]

I think the Jack/Norrington is so popular because Jack Davenport is incredibly hot, more so than Orlando and Johnny imho, but at the same time Norrington seems to be a very straight character. As Johnny looks like a girl who ran away to join the pirates in the movie, Jack/Norrington is obviously the way to go.

On the other hand, I haven't read much PotC slash at all, but all the J/N I've read doesn't seem right. It's so un-Norrington. It only goes to show what an amazing actor Jack Davenport is, 'cos he was soverygayandpretty in The Talented Mr Ripley.

[permetaform]

huh, I guess that makes sense. well. barring the

Jack Davenport is incredibly hot, more so than Orlando and Johnny imho,

...but then again, I really adore prettyboys so I guess it's all a matter of personal preferance ::grins and shrugs::

[ignited.livejournal.com]

Ahh. I feel the same way. See, I can sort of see Jack/Norrington, but I don't find a reason to really 'get' it or obsess over it when I have Jack/Will. Besides, if I did? That'd mean a whole new site to make and such... ;)

But yeah, I can see more of Jack/Will. Don't worry -- you're not alone. :)

I'm not a fan of Sirius/Remus either.

I was briefly interested in that, but my interest waned as well...only read the first two HP books and am lazy enough to just wait until the movie comes out next year. ;)

[permetaform]

hee! ::glomp::

[scanky-chops.livejournal.com]

I'm not a fan of Jack/Will myself but i can see where it comes from. I'm not a fan of Will or Elizabeth [although i can stand her a lot more than i can stand him] and with Jack/Norrington i see the whole straight-laced officer/free spirit pirate thing going on.

The film is based on Will, Jack and Elizabeth so having Norrington in there, i think, makes it harder. The idea of Jack/Will, Jack/Elizabeth and Will/Elizabeth is pushed a lot in the film so i think it's seen as more natural.

I myself always go for the weird pairing and for me, it's Jack/Norrington.

And as for Sirius/Remus... i dunno. I can see the couple in the canon stuff but... I can't stand Sirius in the books, especially OoTP. His character is very... weird, which can be accounted for since the guy spent a whole lotta time in Azkaban. But i just couldn't stand him in OoTP and when he... you-know-whated i was actually happy about it. Now, in terms of the films i'm gonna hate it 'cos i love Gary Oldman. Poor pet.

And don't worry, i don't like Legolas much either. Come to think of it, i don't think i like any of the characters Orlando Bloom has played. And from the sounds of things, when Troy comes out i'm gonna be out for his blood 'cos it's 'cos of him that Hector dies and i like Hector. And hell, they all die 'cos of him. But ok, it's not just him. And... i'll shut up now. Sorry.

[permetaform]

I myself always go for the weird pairing

and yeah, see, I usually *go* for off-the-wall ::points at various recs lists: and yet. yeah.

I dunno, I thought Orlando looks fine in Pirates, and as for Sirius? meh.

[uguisubari.livejournal.com]

Jack/Norrington is so appealing (because Mr. Davenport is just way more entrancing than Mr. Bloom imho, but this left aside), because they actually represent a challenge for each other. Norrington understood the principal of the "dishonest man" rather soon (probably right after loosing his ship to him) and is most definitely up for the challenge. He would not have let him simply slip away in the end if he was just Hell bent onto seeing him hung. In canon, I think, they will either end up being friends despite being adversaries or talk each other to death ... most likely both. (and in fanfic you can take it a step even further) It's much like a Legolas/Gimli (book style) thing.

Apart from this Elizabeth is just way too cool a female lead to be slashed out, she and Will are right for each other and I see no reason for ripping them apart. Sweet couple.

Not into Sirius/Remus either. I like them as friends, but prefer Snape/Remus as a pairing ... and an occasional Sirius/Snape PWP in-between snack. ^_-

[permetaform]

erm. dear. singing to the choir here. I *get* it. I *understand* it. And I *like* adversarially friendly fuckbuddies. But I *don't* get why it doesn't resonate for me.

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

At least you can actually choose a pairing in PotC. They're all just so visually appealing...and thus 'Game'. Bleah. I'm so indecisive.

[permetaform]

but orgies are always good!

[majokai.livejournal.com]

No worries. Same problem here. I don't support Jack/Norrington even though it gets glaringly obvious sometimes. ^^ Whatever that floats your boat, I guess.

Oh, I'm letting you choose. I have written a Sands/El for you for Christmas. But I really think it sucks, so I started on a Jack/Will reincarnation fic for you...(which might grow vertically and laterally to become a rather big project). So do you want your Christmas fic completed on time (and I give you the Sands/El) or do you want just the first chapter to be deliver on time and I present you with the Jack/Will?

[permetaform]

ooooo, Sands/El or Jack/Will?? You're making me choose ::boggles::...umm.umm..um....!! ::flail:: Jack/Will, because it's reincarnation!fic. yes ::glomps!::

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

boy, two in a day! And I say again, these words make no sense to me. Because I *am* a Jack/Norrington person. A very, very devoted one. Because, to me, what they represent is a meeting of equals and respect and *adults*, which is what the */Elizabeth or */Will pairings are missing.

but then, I do not get the appeal of Will at *all*. Aside from the pretty, and the pretty is very much not enough to overcome everything else for me.

[firesignwriter.livejournal.com]

Oh my god, your icon is fucking gorgeous! Did you make that? ::deads of the yum::

Also, regarding what you said here: Huzzah!

[circe-tigana.livejournal.com]

Hee.

I apparently am exactly the opposite :)

I don't get Will/Jack at all. I don't get Sands/El at all.

Now Sands/Ajedrez/Anamaria I could get behind ;)

[permetaform]

...or in the middle of...

[aea]

What, no Jack/Gov. Swann? ;)
I dig the Will/Jack, too, but I just can't get into the PotC fic. Except Circe's No Pirate On Earth epic. And I just can't get into Jack/Elizabeth. It's like I want my boys together. A pimp and his man-servant.

[permetaform]

It's like I want my boys together. A pimp and his man-servant.

::dies:: you slay me. XD

[azziria.livejournal.com]

Each to their own, I say, live and let live and all that, and god forbid anyone should get upset or fall out over this topic...

...but personally, even having read all these lovely explanations here, I just can't and don't get Jack/Will at all. I read it (and some of it is very lovely and I enjoy it) but I really don't get it. And in fact the more I watch the film (oh the joy of finally having the DVD in my hot little hands!) the less I get it.

Now with Jack/Norrington, you have the snark, the competitiveness, the fact that they irritate the hell out of one another. So that's my OTP.

I can even see Jack/Elizabeth easier than Jack/Will - there's a mutual respect for cunning and intelligence there.

I guess this just goes to show that, even though we're all watching the same film, we're all taking slightly different things away from it, depending on our personal tastes and experiences.

[permetaform]

which makes sense. But I don't know why J/N doesn't click for me. so. odd.

[ficangel.livejournal.com]

I can see where people come from on Jack/Will, but as I spent half the movie expecting a Darth Vader moment between the two of them, the resulting squick factor trips me right up. The Jack/Norrington appeals to me in an prideful, opposites attract sort of way, but my real OTP is Jack/Elizabeth.

Really, when you boil it down, as long as Jack gets some I'll be happy.

[cyprinella]

"Will, I'm your, um, fa....thom? Fa...iry? Fa....rther?"
"Father?"
"Yes! That's it! Father!"

[goingxmissing.livejournal.com]

I sooo get that. I just don't dig Jack/Norrington at all. Jack Davenport does nothing for me, and thus to be paired with one of the sexiest doesn't seem right.

Whereas Jack/Will. Oh yeah! It's there, all right! Definitely my OTP in PotC, nothing will change that! Go you!

But Sirius/Remus - that I do like. Not as much as Draco/Harry, so not my OTP, but I think they're lovely together all the same!

I agree with everything else though!! :D

Disclaimer: This is all MY opinion, and others are welcome to theirs. :)

[firesignwriter.livejournal.com]

You're hardly in the minority there. Jack/James is winning converts, but Jack/Will is still by far the dominant flavor of the fandom. ;)

I can see Jack/anybody, actually, given persuasive context. But Jack/James (hereafter represented by the cutely spoony symbol: Jj) appeals to me for many of the reasons others have already given. It's easier to see in them a meeting of equals, for one thing -- not in the boring, "Okay, we respect each other and will smoothly traverse all our problems," but equals in the sense of always having a question of who's got the upper hand in this instance, who's willing to yield for that reason, where is there acknowledged respect and where does the friction constantly linger...? I love pairings that aren't seamless meldings. It's all about the jagged edges -- or, as I've said elsewhere, the not-quite-fit of the puzzle pieces that still manage to craft a fascinating picture.

Also, Jack's wit versus Norrington's snark is just plain irresistible to me. ::coo::

To me Jj represents challenge. It's a challenge to write them together convincingly. There will always remain challenges within the fabric of any relationship they form. Power issues. Repression. And the larger themes they can be used to explore: freedom versus obligation; "take what you can, give nothing back" versus "I serve others, not only myself."

::shiver:: Gah, how I lovelust the Jj...

Reasons why I'm not a Jack/Will 'shipper (though I have no vehement opposition to the pairing):

The inequality. It's a matter of age, it's a matter of life experience, it's a matter of canniness versus naivete. I can't realistically see these two relating as equals, challenging each other, without a lot of groundwork being done on the writer's part to build that into the relationship. Which most writers don't or won't do, as the pairing is so easy to see that it's become the default for the fandom.

The stereotypical Hollywood-esque pretty. There's too much of it. Make it stop.

Sparrow's wit versus Will's...lack. Not that Will's unintelligent! I disagree strongly with folks who call him stupid, and I think the movie clearly portrayed him as having above-average intelligence. But he's not cleverly humorous. It's not a character flaw, but a personality trait. (What's the wittiest thing he said in the movie? "Goodbye"?) So it's hard for me to imagine or believe in an entertaining, back-and-forth series of ripostes with them.

Most importantly of all...

Elizabeth. How often does Hollywood give us bold, appealing, clever female leads in an action movie? Liz kicks ass! And the treatment she receives in the bulk of Jack/Will fics I've read is nigh unforgivable. She's shunted aside with careless, lazy explanations or written contrary to character as often as not. (There are exceptions, but the rule in Jack/Will fic appears to be -- and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't regularly read the pairing anymore -- "Get rid of the girl. Immediately.") Unfair unfair unfair! ::footstomp::

Final notes: I think it's easier to make a convincing argument for Norrington being slashed than Will. Norrington's thirty-something, has probably spent most of his life on a ship with men (and buggery did occur often enough in the Royal Navy for severe anti-buggery campaigns to be waged every so often), and is profoundly awkward with women. It's not inconceivable that the character's outright gay. (I don't write him as such, but I can easily buy it.) Another argument that's been made that looks at a more emotionally based reason for slashing him is this: he may have been drawn to Elizabeth partly due to her strength and assertiveness (unusual for women of the day) and the possibility of having, with her, a marriage of equals, which he'd be very unlikely to find elsewhere among his social class. He doesn't want a weaker partner; he wants someone who challenges him. If not Liz, perhaps a man.

Also (and this is verreh verreh important), he has such pretty sea-green eyes... How could Jack resist eyes the color of the ocean, hm? ;-)

Re: Disclaimer: This is all MY opinion, and others are welcome to theirs. :)

[uguisubari.livejournal.com]

And a heartfelt "Huzzah!" to this too!

[linaelyn.livejournal.com]

I <3 The Sparrington. 'Tis written by my favorite writer on teh planet. and several others whom I truly greatly enjoy.

But I'm STILL a Jack/Will 'shipper. Jack/Will is who screams out at me from canon. Will worships Jack on-screen. Jack, in his slightly condescending way, thinks Will is HAWT, at least enough to enjoy the entertainment of an evening.

I can't write Norrie for love nor money. I've tried.

Groves will do anyone.

Elizabeth/Will is inneresting, but I can only write ias background for other stories, not as straight plot.

*huggles you*

If you write any Will/Jack, I'll squee so loud you'll actually hear it across the Bay. ANd you know I adore your Legolas/Gimli, right? *smooch*

[linaelyn.livejournal.com]

Okay, and now I've read the rest of people's comment, and I have to say this:

I don't see the difference in ages or experience as a stumbling block in Jack/Will. I see it as an asset. Sure, and imbalance of power can be a bad thing, inj a relationship where one person means another harm.

Jack showed that for all his, "by all means, kill the whelp!" that was exactly what he was trying to avoid! It's the slight uncertainty, where do Jack's affections truly lie? WHich Jack resolves for us in the film. Firmly in Will's corner.

We never wonder where Will's affections lie. Will is devoted WIll is willing to die for Jack. ANd that's the thing about this pairing that appeals to me.

I like devoted men. I like honest men, who occasionally do something incredibly...stupid. I think the WIll/Jack pairing may come down to this: do you want Jack as your partner, as an equal, a la the Sparrington? Or do you personally identify with Jack, and see Will's devotion as a lovely, beautiful thing to recieve?

*wry smirk, finger in the corner of mouth* And which one would Lin be, hmmmm?

[firesignwriter.livejournal.com]

Superquickie note, as I've gotta get in the shower and get my arse to see 'The Last Samurai'...

Part of the reason I can't seem to get back to that bloody donkey story is because, at that point, I was defaulting to Jack/Will, and figured I'd be writing an OT3 (Jack/Will/Elizabeth, not Jack/Will/donkey, you pervs!) that I just don't have the interest in anymore. ::sadsigh::

And -- this is totally personal bias, but... -- I like the idea of Will putting his life on the line to save Jack because it's the Right Thing, rather than out of love for him. Cuz Stalwart!Will does it for me in a way that Lovelost!Will just never can.

do you want Jack as your partner, as an equal, a la the Sparrington? Or do you personally identify with Jack, and see Will's devotion as a lovely, beautiful thing to recieve?

And this is why I can sometimes still buy the pairing, even though it's not my cuppa. :)

[niqaeli]

Oh, thank god, it's not just me.

I totally see where people are coming from with the Sparrington, and the Jack/Elisabeth and the Jack/Anamaria and all that. I've read some marvelous fic for all of them that I absolutely, truly enjoyed. But none of them resonate sufficiently for me to track down quantities of fic. I read my favourite authors, the folks who are my flist, but I don't go out searching for it.

And, thing is, I do for Jack/Will.

And, thing is, I have a million and one objections to Jack/Will and how *most* people writing it write it, but it doesn't matter--I'll still go out occasionally looking for it, trying to find new writers who don't suck and understand the problems and address them.

For whatever reason, Jack/Will has a resonance with me where other, more obvious, and easier pairings to get right... just don't.

And good god, you have NO IDEA how nice it is to hear that I'm not the only one! I swear, I thought I was. The fact that I feel so isolated, particularly on that issue, in the fandom, is a lot of the reason my pseudo-epic thingy with Sparrow the cat and Captain Blacksmith Will and Em is on ice for the forseeable future.

My other pairings in that fandom are Norrington/Elisabeth and Barbossa/Elisabeth, both of which are rare and it's depressing for me to see all the Sparrington fic out there... it started off as the second unloved daughter in fandom and now it's the homecoming queen, or something. It's not fair of me, at all, but honestly, I resent it a little. Being as I'm a selfish wench, I want those fabulously talented people writing my pairings!

Obviously, I don't *talk* about that because I have no right to tell people what to write, but it doesn't keep me from wanting it.

Anyway. Thank you for sharing that. It made me feel so much less alone.

::glomp!::

[permetaform]

we are so very on the same boat. ship. yeah. And I was mostly fairly sure that I was going to get lynched for the post or something, but the response has been generally positive and cordial (despite the Sparrington'shippers apparently not reading my post...) and I'm at sort of the same place fic-wise because apparently no one is apparently willing to discuss Jack/Will and I'm wondering if everything I saw were just ghosts and it made me not trust my own judgement.

And. Dude. you just may be the first commentor who actually answered the question. You may have a point there with the selfishness...tho it doesn't feel completely like that because.yeah. there's like this lingering, 'is there NO one else who is willing to argue the pair logically?' and 'Can this pair even be argued logically?'

There was a huge discussion back in the beginning about Will's characterization (The Great Will Debate) and a thread where I'd spazzed about them and what seemed like all the replies where something along the lines of 'I don't see it.' And god but that's depressing.

::hugs:: and thank you.

[darkeyedwolf.livejournal.com]

I feel you, 100%. I've read Jack/Norrington, I've thought it was great, and I can see its appeal - but my heart belongs to Jack/Will. <3

[permetaform]

...'my heart will, go ooooooooooon.'

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

Thanks for hosting all of this discussion in your journal...

And now, to babble about me! :-) I've yet to think of a PotC pairing I dislike.

Sometimes I'm in the mood for Jack/Will. Sometimes I'm in the mood for Jack/Norrington, and I'm kind of curious why that pairing seems to be having a bit of an upsurge lately. Sometimes I'm in the mood for Will/Norrington. Yeah, you read that right.

And sometimes, I'm even in the mood for Elizabeth/Will, and Elizabeth/Jack, and Anamaria/Elizabeth. Does anyone know of good Elizabeth/Estrella fics?

*happy fannish grin* I love this fandom!

But I also will admit that there are some nights when each of the pairings I mention don't *ping* for me. They still work, of course, and I still see them, but there isn't the... what's the word... frisson? sizzle? on some level, that I'm looking for.

It seems to change with my mood, with my monthly cycle, and with what else I've been watching and reading lately, actually. Kinda funky.

[permetaform]

huh, that makes sense, and yeah with PotC being just uber pairing friendly (Pintel/Ragetti!). Maybe I just have to be in a better mindset to feel the J/N

[gileonnen.livejournal.com]

+grin+ Remember the good old days, when there was only one Jack/Norrington shipper?

I totally understand, and I must say that I feel identically about Jack/Will. It's well-written (when people bother with plot and characterization and don't skip straight to the madbunnysex). And I have gotten fonder of Will through writing it. But it's not my thing. =)

To sum, I totally sympathize and I'm not in the least offended. Extremely amused, actually, that people could take offense.

So, who's up for a good round of Pintel/Ragetti? +grin+

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

Read the entire discussion just now and not sure where to start with comments.

I've not read much 'PotC' fic other than a couple by lucybond and cavalorn and, of course guede_mazaka's 'Game' Series (must write that feedback I promised). But I have the DVD to watch on my laptop this week after work so maybe I'll read more next weekend or over the xmas break.

But personally I wouldn't expect Jack/Norrington to do much for me. I write pairings based on character rather than pretty (okay so Sands/El is both but there has to be an exception to prove the rule) and so far I've not really picked up any 'write-me' vibes from Norrington at all.

Aha, maybe J/N is the Blake/Avon of this here fandom. I'll never understand why people have that as their OTP either.

I'll disagree on Sirius/Remus though. I like the pairing and I've read some great fic for it.

Gina