ruminations

[permetaform]

So.

You have this boy, who perhaps has a sense of...something, a yearning and a wish for something else, and he is told, "Be normal." He perhaps feels different, he perhaps wants more, but he doesn't know what.

He is told, in so many words, that a certain group of people are less than human, that he shouldn't feel the way they feel, and so perhaps he hates them a bit too much because they tempt him.

Perhaps he hates them a bit too much to prove that he's not; one of them, I mean.

Is a thought, no? That gay werewolves and Will Turners might have more in common than sense would advise?

Jack : And you want to turn pirate yourself, is that it?
Will : Never! They took Miss Swann.
_{(all quotes from here)}

heh. Think he doth protest too much?

Also,

Is Will Turner really all that despicable? I see posts arguing against the value, use, whatever, of his character and. Well, okay, breaking it down:

[What Will knows]

-Elizabeth has been threatened by a pirate.

1) Will *might* know that Elizabeth loves pirates, if so then it might be considered a betrayal if a pirate threatened her

2) If Will does *not* know that Elizabeth loves pirates, he's still been raised in a place that hangs pirates regularly (and is perhaps generally antagonistic towards pirates?), has been on a ship attacked by pirates as a kid, and (from what he knows) his father was killed by pirates

3) Will gave no indication of knowing that Elizabeth was saved from drowning by Jack.

-Will meets his first pirate, who threatens him:

1) I doubt that Will properly *understands* the concept of un-fair play. He might understand the concept of "cheating" but it doesn't really occur to him to cheat in a fight.

2) It is true that Will 'feints' on the rafters but it's part of that particular exchange, and there's usually a bit of a pause as he and waits for Jack to recover before hitting again. I think there was a bit in the commentaries where it actually states that bit of swordplay (where Will waits for Jack to recover before attacking again) was intended.

3) Knowing these things, the fact that Jack says "Please move aside" would not have much of an impact on Will. For *us*, knowing about pirates, it is extraordinary. For Will, having never met a pirate, knowing of cheating but never expecting even a pirate to cheat, it is not much more than some odd behavior. Jack is still a *pirate* to him, who cheats and lies and is vile and evil and etc. etc.

-Will, in freeing the pirate who threatens him, notices

1) Jack is prevacating and evasive and unhelpful, until Will mentions his name. This has been hashed and re-hashed before. Remember, still, that Jack basically asks if Will is prepared to die just a bit after.

2) And then, as far as *Will* knows, Jack insults and lies about Will's father (by calling him a pirate) and then tricks Will again, making him hang off the yard of the ship.

-Will hears Jack make a reference to him and leverage.

1) Refer to (1) and (2) of the previous section.

2) Will doesn't know whether Jack knew his father as a friend or as an *enemy*. There's no solid indication of where Jack is telling the truth and where he's lying, and Will has already been tricked twice by Jack (in the smithy and on the Interceptor). Pretty much all Will knows for sure is that Jack asked if he was ready to die and that Will's name has something to do with it. Oh, and Will knows that Jack is a pirate and he cheats.

3) Will hears, and you *know* he must hear this because it was louder than the "leverage" line:

Jack : Take what you can…
Gibbs : …Give nothing back.

It's not exactly something to inspire confidence, ne?

-Will learns while entering Isla de Muerta,

1) Jack isn't forthcoming with information

Gibbs : That was before I met him, back when he was Captain of the Black Pearl.
Will : What? He failed to mention that.

And really, Jack wasn't forthcoming about most of his plan, keeping things 'close to the chest'. I really think he was planning to pull the same stunt he did later on (with Norrington's crew) initially with Gibbs' crew; that is, release the curse while Barbossa's men were out fighting Gibbs.

However, Will had no way of knowing this. Jack didn't talk much on the Interceptor, didn't want to talk to Will, pretty much didn't *care* about what Will thoughts were. There was really no apparent reason for Jack to let Will to *be* there, why didn't Jack just leave Will in Tortuga? Unless Will was to be used as bait...

2) Jack can be ruthless

Will : [sees a skull] What Code is Gibbs to keep to if the worst should happen?
Jack : Pirate’s Code. Any man that falls behind…is left behind.

Perhaps Jack was referring to Gibbs' crew fighting Barbossa's men, perhaps Jack was referring to Will. Either way, wouldn't that creep *you* out? Again, remember what Will knows so far, and what Will *doesn't* know. Will *couldn't* know what Jack was planning, what sort of man Jack was, and if Jack was going to just trick him and leave both him and Elizabeth behind...

3) Jack manipulates and lies to people

Jack : May I ask you something? Have I ever given you reason not to trust me?

Jack has already physically tricked Will twice, been evasive about information both in jail and on the Interceptor, is planning to use Will as 'leverage' without telling him, never told him what was up with Will's name or father, has asked if Will is prepared to die, and has said, directly, that "Any man that falls behind…is left behind."

We, as the audience, and knowing about pirates, and having seen this movie multiple times, know what's going on in Jack's head. But I remember the first time I watched it and being unsure of what Jack was up to and wondering if he was actually going to sacrifice Will.

4) ...and we actually have proof that that's actually what Will thought:

[in the cabin of the Interceptor]
Elizabeth : [trying to bandage her palm] What sort of a man trades a man’s life for a ship?
Will : Pirate. Here. Let me. [puts on bandages]

-Will finally gets proof that Jack perhaps isn't so bad when...

1) When Elizabeth gets out the medallion they've been trading stories about and Will see's that it was his, which means that his father *was* a pirate

2) When Will tries to make a deal with Barbossa and meets the pirates of Barbossa's crew and thus has a chance to compare Jack with more ruthless pirates. Will had probably thought Jack was ruthless, but he really had no clue...

3) In the Pearl's brig Pintel mentions,

"Ol' Bootstrap Bill. We knew him. Never sat well with Bootstrap what we did to Jack Sparrow, the mutiny and all. He said it wasn’t right with the Code. That’s why he sent off a piece of the treasure to you as it were. He said we deserved to be cursed…and remain cursed."

Now, Pintel is not only giving an account that agrees with what Will already knows about the coin (and probably what Will thinks of his father), but supposing Pintel's telling the truth, then now Will knows that Bootstrap must have been at least friendly with Jack and that it's possible for pirates to be decent (since he probably has fond memories of his dad, and if his dad actually *was* a pirate...) hence:

Ragetti : [in reference to Bootstrap] Stupid blighter.
Gibbs : Good man.

4) And then Will finally *gets* Jack's plan

Will : [sees Jack take a piece of the gold] You’ve been planning this from the beginning. Ever since you learned my name.
Jack : Yeah.

Again, notice the parallels with the situation, there are boats outside ready to kill Barbossa's men when they come out, with the possibility of ending the curse at a bad moment for Barbossa and so that everyone wins in the end. EXCEPT this time, Will knows what's going on.

I don't know what would have happened if Jack kept things less 'close to the chest', as it were, but then this story wouldn't have occured. If anything it's become a comedy of errors because both Will and Jack were *paranoid* as fuck because of their experiences.

In essence...

Will Turner is a bit stupid and very young but he isn't entirely irrational. He makes a mistake in not trusting Jack, but he didn't necessarily betray him, not with what Will knew and witnessed (remember, Will never saw, nor heard, that Elizabeth was saved by Jack).

Will is NOT perfect and he's NOT someone you could look up to, but he's realistic; I can sympathize with him and I love him as a character.

Jack : They done what’s right by them. Can’t expect more than that.

::waves Will Turner Defense League flag::

Comments

[tanacawyr.livejournal.com]

He is told, in so many words, that a certain group of people are less than human, that he shouldn't feel the way they feel, and so perhaps he hates them a bit too much because they tempt him. Perhaps he hates them a bit too much to prove that he's not, one of them I mean.

Is a thought, no?

Jeez, you've just described the prevailing social myth about men and women. *shudders*

[permetaform]

exactly. in one part of the commentaries they mention how Will's played as someone tied up in a corset and then Jack comes and then he's able to breathe...

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

Going to pimp this.

*smooch*

God. You have no. Idea. How much I needed a spot of excellent meta.

[permetaform]

::glomps:: I've noticed your troubles with KA. I wasn't sure what to say in reply to them, especially since I haven't seen the movie.

However this? This I can meta on, and the subject has been bothering me for awhile and I finally found a bit of time to let 'er rip...

[dreamiflame.livejournal.com]

Now that's just cool. I've always liked Will in a more abstract way, but this all makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for sharing it.

[permetaform]

=) I had to write it, my brain was going to explode otherwise...

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

:blinks stupidly:

I love PotC, but I've never been in the fandom. Will, one of the more interesting romantic leads in an adventure movie, needs a defense?

I'm floored.

(Well, okay, after quite a long time in SW, a fandom in which the central character of the saga is often reviled as boring, whiny, or whatever the adjective du jour is, I'm not really capable of being shocked. But this is about as close as I come to it.)

[permetaform]

Will, one of the more interesting romantic leads in an adventure movie, needs a defense?

yeah...labeled as stupid, useless, meaningless, and loathesome.

so.

[goingxmissing.livejournal.com]

OMG, thank you for doing this!! It was great. You've made so many good point and argued them so well ... I've neve rthought in this much detail about PotC before. Thanks for getting me thinking.

<33

[permetaform]

heh, no problem. PotC is a really rich movie and just really well thought out, probably because not only did it have two main writers (on SET) but both JD and Geoffrey Rush really *thought* about their characters and the director knew exactly how dorky he wanted Will to be (several times he'd had to remind Bloom to stop being cool and be more dorky) so in effect you have several very talented people collaborating and shoring up characterizations. What's totally facinating and really helped give me plotbunnies is watching the writer's commentary for PotC.

[serinatia.livejournal.com]

*loves the defense*

I think the problem is that Will is always compared to Jack, and it's never in a good way. 'Cos Will's trying to be honest and noble and fit in society, while Jack's the complete opposite.

He's not stupid, though.

Is a thought, no? That gay werewolves and Will Turners might have more in common than sense would advise?

*laughs* That's making me want to find the similarities... or write a crossover.

[permetaform]

*laughs* That's making me want to find the similarities... or write a crossover.

dooooooo it!!

[hippediva.livejournal.com]

Sweetie, I'm sorry if my inane ramblings in the night got you upset. I certainly didn't mean for that post to be taken seriously. Your meta is fabulous and well-thought out. I was just having one of my odd moments. I have a funny response to Will---sometimes, I really like him, sometimes I don't. Apparently, Friday night was an off night. *G*

:::offers rum and grins:::

Soooo...sorry for the upset but kinda glad if it resulted in your taking the time to post such a great meta.

forgive me? I'm just a silly savage sometimes. *G*

[permetaform]

=) heh, np. forgiven.

[sinister-beauty.livejournal.com]

-huge, incredibly, obnoxiously loud applause- YES

[permetaform]

::beams::

[the-dala.livejournal.com]

*standing ovation*

Will HAS LAYERS. YAY.

Also, I think you make a really good point about the fandom, or large parts of it anyway, being so familiar with the movie. I mean, I can pretty much quote the entire thing verbatim with vocal inflections while describing each scene in exhaustive detail and highlighting bits of the commentaries. The only other movies I can do that with are ones I can't even remember seeing for the first time, I've been in love with them so long. And I know for damned sure I'm not the only one. It's almost impossible to see these characters completely fresh as we did upon first viewing, before we had adopted this or that way of thinking.

[permetaform]

heh, I know what you mean about the quoting, and I adore having a fandom where the canon is so accessible and yet so open and yet it's easy to forget sometimes what certain characters knows and not knows. Our founding image of Jack is of him diving in to save Elizabeth and him making The Best Entrance EVER, and it's easy to forget other perspectives

[ceria-taliesin.livejournal.com]

Is Will Turner really all that despicable?

No, not at all. Nice post by the way.

*waves flag also*

PotC is a really rich movie and just really well thought out

That's what I remember most from watching it the first time, how well the points and plots were tied together. Each character was developed well. Some were better, of course, depending on screen time, but I love Will.

I like that he seems to instinctually know when something will happen, like the night the crew from the Pearl attacks and take Liz. He stopped working just prior to the attack and stuck his head out the window, looking for something.

I like that he talks to his tools - just before Jack slapped his hand he was talking to the hammer. It's a credit to the writers to add such a small detail that leads me to believe Will was lonely and/or spent too much time alone working.

I like that he stuck up for the pirate against Norrington at the end, even though one assumes he's known Norrington forever and has to have some respect for him. Will just stinks of honor.

It's always suprised me that Will didn't seem to know more about pirates, considering Liz's obsession with them.

So, I adore Will, but had to laugh at Fernwithy's comment above. I love Luke the best out of all the SW characters. Hmmm, that is something for me to think about.

[permetaform]

heh, thank you.

As for Will not knowing about pirates, I think Liz kept her liking of pirates a secret, in between urgings from her father and perhaps the townspeople's views. Remember, she hid the coin and at one point in the movie:

Will : I thought I’d lost it the day they rescued me. It was a gift from my father. He sent it to me. Why did you take it?
Elizabeth : Because I was afraid that you were a pirate. That would have been awful.

Her line makes NO sense, unless she was STILL hiding the fact that she likes pirates and was hiding the fact. 'Cause I *think* what she did as a kid was so that Will wouldn't be hung and so that she's have a pirate medallion of her own...BUT that would only make the "That would have been awful" line make sense. Elizabeth thus HAD to have been keeping it all a secret, if little-miss-YO-HO was saying "I was afraid that you were a pirate."

[iseult-variante.livejournal.com]

Ehm. Yeah, I've been lurking for a while, but I'm friending you now, liek whoa.

Your post was really interesting, and the comments so far have been great too. I wonder if Will doesn't, to some degree, get tarred by the same brush as Norrington - too much upstandingness seems less interesting, especially compared to Jack? Anyway, thanks for your thoughts!

[permetaform]

heh, thank you! and as for the Will and Norrington being tarred with the same brush? It's perhaps a bit more complex than that, because with Norrinton you also have the added baggage of him being an authority figure and fighting over the same girl as Will and thus aquiring some of the antagonist glaze. With Will you have to move beyond his dorkyness and his 'hero-ness', there's people who apprarently dislike the fact that he is situated in the 'hero' role and the fact that there's a hero at all.

One tiny point...

[splintergirl.livejournal.com]

This was really good, so well thought through! God, I love this fandom! Such smart folks! All your points about Will are on the button, except I am not sure I agree with this one:

2) Will doesn't know whether Jack knew his father as a friend or as an *enemy*.

i. Will knows that Jack knew his father well, well enough to know his actual name, not just his nickname (a nickname his own son didn't know):
Jack : I knew ‘im. Probably one the few who knew him as William Turner . Everyone else just called him Bootstrap or Bootstrap Bill.
Will: Bootstrap?

ii. Would Jack, in an admiring voice, refer to an enemy as:
Jack : Good man. Good pirate. I swear you look just like him.

iii. And okay, he does call him names:
Will : It’s not true. He was a merchant sailor. A good, respectable man who obeyed the law.
Jack : He was a bloody pirate, a scallywag.

iv. But then come more comments that indicate that Jack and Bootstrap were friends:
Jack : ... For instance, you can accept that your father was a pirate and a good man or you can’t.

All that being said, I still agree with your conclusions. And I like your suggestion for Jack's original plan, before Will whacked him with the oar, very likely true. Any idea what Will's plan was? Because the way I see things, if the pirates were going to slit Liz's throat for the blood, Will came along far too late to stop them.

Re: One tiny point...

[permetaform]

Part of that is assuming that Will is taking Jack for his word. Assuming Will thinks Jack is lying out of his own ass, or at least not telling him everything, Will might not be able to gain any conclusions from it.

Provided that Will thinks Jack is telling it as it is, in regards to (i) it could be simply from the time before Bootstrap recieved his nickname. Knowing one's real name is not an indication of friendship. It *could* be an indication that Jack was privy to Bootstrap's secrets, or Jack *could* just be lucky or he *could* have been digging at Bootstraps secrets...

For (ii), I'll break it down into parts again; what exactly constitues a "good pirate"? Would a good pirate mean that Bootstrap is good at pirating (Barbossa is a good pirate...), or would it mean the same as "good man"? Or is it one of those, "The only good pirates is a dead pirate" types of things? Also, even though it was said admiringly, it was also said as if in appeasement to Will, which brings back the question of why would Will be on the Interceptor anyways? Why is Jack putting up with Will when he's so obviously annoyed at and slowed down by him? From Will's perspective, it's all very fishy.

In reference to the "good man" phrase itself, I'm not sure that's an iron-clad indication of friendship. I've seen in various places where the villain of the series would call one of the heros or an innocent a "good person", said with perfect sincerity. And they would mean it, except that there's also the connotation that the "good person" was a schmuck and therefore easy prey...

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Damn, I get in on every discussion so bloody late...

Word to just about every point you made here. Will's not my favourite character in the entire movie--that would have to be either Jack or Barbossa, simply because they're both so much fun to watch, but I've always had a soft spot for him and his naivete and inhibitions. You watch him grow and mature over the course of the movie in a way that no other character (even Elizabeth) really does. There's a reason I ship OT3 instead of just Jack/Elizabeth (or Sparrington, for that matter).

If anything it [the plot]'s become a comedy of errors because both Will and Jack were *paranoid* as fuck because of their experiences.

I don't think I've seen it put quite that way before, but that's a very good point ^_^.

Maybe I should join the Will Turner defence league...

[permetaform]

heh, serious serious comedy of errors, 'cause Will is trying to do his thing and totally not succeeding, and the Captain is not letting his crew know what the fuck's going on and is all surprised when he gets all brained by an oar, and the Gov's Daughter is all trying to save her city and gets all kidnapped in the process oops sorry dad.

[gypsy-nightfire.livejournal.com]

Precisely. And thank you for explaining it so well that I finally know what I mean in my head. *grins*
~Nightfire.

[permetaform]

=) part of it was me trying to put into precise words why the fact that Will shouldn't be hated because of his 'betrayal' of Jack. *Jack* would be upset at Will not trusting him and betraying him that way, but *Will* would probably not understand that Jack might be upset until much later.

[colourmediscord.livejournal.com]

Incredibly impressive analysing. Everything you've said makes sense and correspondes with Will's character, a hearty well done.

[permetaform]

heh, thank you!

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

Perhaps he hates them a bit too much to prove that he's not; one of them, I mean.

Or, alternately, he could hate them because pirates are, in general, raping, murdering, thieving bastards who blew up the ship he was on as a child and left everyone for dead.

Just sayin'.

[permetaform]

making a comparison, is all. I'd mentioned the latter fact in #2 of the first bit of my argument.

arrrr...

[latxcvi.livejournal.com]

He makes a mistake in not trusting Jack

Okay, no disrespect, but this kind of thinking, when applied to either Will or Norrington in the movie? Drives me bugfuck nuts. It is not, in fact, a mistake to fail to trust someone who has given you *no reason to trust them*. I mean, yes, I take issue with Will clobbering Jack with the oar and leaving him behind to die on Isla de Muerta mainly because Jack wouldn't have been on Isla de Muerta had Will not pressed Jack to help him - it's the age-old principle that if you actively place someone in harm's way, then yeah, you do kind of have a duty to keep harm from befalling them. But I don't fault Will for not trusting Jack when, as you point out, he's already have it demonstrated that *Jack's not trusting him* and may, in fact, be planning to double-cross him. By my lights, Will's wrong-headedness comes in the form of braining Jack rather than standing his ground and being all, "Look, I'm not taking another step to help you unless you tell me *exactly* what the deal is here." The latter isn't unreasonable because he does sense that Jack's not telling him everything; at that juncture in the movie, it's perfectly *prudent* for Will not to trust Jack. The former's just bad cricket.

(And don't even get me started on the whole "Well, if Norrington had just listened to Jack" business I see people bandy about with regard to the final battle at Isla de Muerta. Seriously, did people just get up and leave the theater during that entire sequence where Jack STOLE NORRINGTON'S FREAKIN' SHIP? Why. On. *Earth*. Should Norrington trust Jack after that? Frankly, I'd have less faith in Norrington's intelligence as a commander and leader of men if he'd blithely gone along with what the *man who stole his goddamned ship* told him to do instead of coming up with a perfectly reasonable and plausible plan of action of his own. I mean, if Jack *had* double-crossed him after Norrington listened, I'm fairly certain the Royal Navy's response to the complete loss of the Dauntless would not have been, "Oh, well, the *pirate* told you to do that. Right-o, then, ol' chap. Right-o!")

Sorry for the rantlet, and it's not actually directed at you since we're essentially making the same point: Based on what some of the characters in the movie know and when they know it, their actions do make sense. I just ... have no real truck with the idea that in not blithely trusting Jack Will and Norrington are somehow being irrational. They aren't. Jack has given them reasons *not* to trust him. Ergo, they *don't*.

Re: arrrr...

[permetaform]

Well I meant more that Will made an error to not trust Jack in that things might've turned out differently, not in that Will was in the wrong.

this:
Jack has given them reasons *not* to trust him. Ergo, they *don't*.

yeah, *exactly*.

[berne.livejournal.com]

*standing ovation* I LOVE YOU DEARLY.

[permetaform]

hee, thanks!

[stungunbilly.livejournal.com]

See, now, I thought Will a rather exceptional young man, myself.

Point 1: master craftsmanship of a difficult specialty.
Point 2: skill with a sword equal to that of experienced fighters.
Point 3: intelligence enough to pick up on some of Jack's duplicity, and not be completely confused by Jack's distractions.
Point 4: recognition of the fastest path to accomplishing his goals, almost every time.

This is a rare individual, raised as an orphan, with no better protector/provider than the drunken blacksmith, who achieves all that we see before the beginning of the film. Before he'd be able to drink in my country/time period. Obviously he can improve, but if he was perfect he'd be annoying. I think him an extraordinary man, and Jack probably did too.

[permetaform]

Obviously he can improve, but if he was perfect he'd be annoying.

::nods:: I think some people may see him as "Marty Sue"ish perfect already, which may account for some of the dislike.

[penm.livejournal.com]

I can't believe I didn't comment on this earlier.

It's gorgeous. It puts everything in perspective and it's going to be a huge help in writing fic to reference what things Will did/did not know about.

Thank you. I memoried this.

[permetaform]

::glomps:: =) glad you like

[girlpearl]

*chuckle* Finally got a chance to read this today. Thank you. *hugs* *wraps self in WTDL flag and dances*

[permetaform]

heh, np! ::hugs back::

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Came to look at this as fabu pimped it. Interesting, useful, really excellent work, and the resulting comments are great too. It's stuff like this that makes me so happy to be a part of this fandom. I will now refer my fellow group members at BP Sails to the link.

[permetaform]

::grins and bows:: glad to me of service ma'am.

[geekmama.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I hope you don't mind me friending you.

[casapazzo.livejournal.com]

Hurrah for Will! So nice to see someone eloquently standing up for him - everyone usually tramples right over him on their way to praise Jack, b/c Jack is so much shinier (they always prefer the bad boy to the straight man).

::raises WTDL standard::