ruminations

[permetaform]

So.

You have this boy, who perhaps has a sense of...something, a yearning and a wish for something else, and he is told, "Be normal." He perhaps feels different, he perhaps wants more, but he doesn't know what.

He is told, in so many words, that a certain group of people are less than human, that he shouldn't feel the way they feel, and so perhaps he hates them a bit too much because they tempt him.

Perhaps he hates them a bit too much to prove that he's not; one of them, I mean.

Is a thought, no? That gay werewolves and Will Turners might have more in common than sense would advise?

Jack : And you want to turn pirate yourself, is that it?
Will : Never! They took Miss Swann.
_{(all quotes from here)}

heh. Think he doth protest too much?

Also,

Is Will Turner really all that despicable? I see posts arguing against the value, use, whatever, of his character and. Well, okay, breaking it down:

[What Will knows]

-Elizabeth has been threatened by a pirate.

1) Will *might* know that Elizabeth loves pirates, if so then it might be considered a betrayal if a pirate threatened her

2) If Will does *not* know that Elizabeth loves pirates, he's still been raised in a place that hangs pirates regularly (and is perhaps generally antagonistic towards pirates?), has been on a ship attacked by pirates as a kid, and (from what he knows) his father was killed by pirates

3) Will gave no indication of knowing that Elizabeth was saved from drowning by Jack.

-Will meets his first pirate, who threatens him:

1) I doubt that Will properly *understands* the concept of un-fair play. He might understand the concept of "cheating" but it doesn't really occur to him to cheat in a fight.

2) It is true that Will 'feints' on the rafters but it's part of that particular exchange, and there's usually a bit of a pause as he and waits for Jack to recover before hitting again. I think there was a bit in the commentaries where it actually states that bit of swordplay (where Will waits for Jack to recover before attacking again) was intended.

3) Knowing these things, the fact that Jack says "Please move aside" would not have much of an impact on Will. For *us*, knowing about pirates, it is extraordinary. For Will, having never met a pirate, knowing of cheating but never expecting even a pirate to cheat, it is not much more than some odd behavior. Jack is still a *pirate* to him, who cheats and lies and is vile and evil and etc. etc.

-Will, in freeing the pirate who threatens him, notices

1) Jack is prevacating and evasive and unhelpful, until Will mentions his name. This has been hashed and re-hashed before. Remember, still, that Jack basically asks if Will is prepared to die just a bit after.

2) And then, as far as *Will* knows, Jack insults and lies about Will's father (by calling him a pirate) and then tricks Will again, making him hang off the yard of the ship.

-Will hears Jack make a reference to him and leverage.

1) Refer to (1) and (2) of the previous section.

2) Will doesn't know whether Jack knew his father as a friend or as an *enemy*. There's no solid indication of where Jack is telling the truth and where he's lying, and Will has already been tricked twice by Jack (in the smithy and on the Interceptor). Pretty much all Will knows for sure is that Jack asked if he was ready to die and that Will's name has something to do with it. Oh, and Will knows that Jack is a pirate and he cheats.

3) Will hears, and you *know* he must hear this because it was louder than the "leverage" line:

Jack : Take what you can…
Gibbs : …Give nothing back.

It's not exactly something to inspire confidence, ne?

-Will learns while entering Isla de Muerta,

1) Jack isn't forthcoming with information

Gibbs : That was before I met him, back when he was Captain of the Black Pearl.
Will : What? He failed to mention that.

And really, Jack wasn't forthcoming about most of his plan, keeping things 'close to the chest'. I really think he was planning to pull the same stunt he did later on (with Norrington's crew) initially with Gibbs' crew; that is, release the curse while Barbossa's men were out fighting Gibbs.

However, Will had no way of knowing this. Jack didn't talk much on the Interceptor, didn't want to talk to Will, pretty much didn't *care* about what Will thoughts were. There was really no apparent reason for Jack to let Will to *be* there, why didn't Jack just leave Will in Tortuga? Unless Will was to be used as bait...

2) Jack can be ruthless

Will : [sees a skull] What Code is Gibbs to keep to if the worst should happen?
Jack : Pirate’s Code. Any man that falls behind…is left behind.

Perhaps Jack was referring to Gibbs' crew fighting Barbossa's men, perhaps Jack was referring to Will. Either way, wouldn't that creep *you* out? Again, remember what Will knows so far, and what Will *doesn't* know. Will *couldn't* know what Jack was planning, what sort of man Jack was, and if Jack was going to just trick him and leave both him and Elizabeth behind...

3) Jack manipulates and lies to people

Jack : May I ask you something? Have I ever given you reason not to trust me?

Jack has already physically tricked Will twice, been evasive about information both in jail and on the Interceptor, is planning to use Will as 'leverage' without telling him, never told him what was up with Will's name or father, has asked if Will is prepared to die, and has said, directly, that "Any man that falls behind…is left behind."

We, as the audience, and knowing about pirates, and having seen this movie multiple times, know what's going on in Jack's head. But I remember the first time I watched it and being unsure of what Jack was up to and wondering if he was actually going to sacrifice Will.

4) ...and we actually have proof that that's actually what Will thought:

[in the cabin of the Interceptor]
Elizabeth : [trying to bandage her palm] What sort of a man trades a man’s life for a ship?
Will : Pirate. Here. Let me. [puts on bandages]

-Will finally gets proof that Jack perhaps isn't so bad when...

1) When Elizabeth gets out the medallion they've been trading stories about and Will see's that it was his, which means that his father *was* a pirate

2) When Will tries to make a deal with Barbossa and meets the pirates of Barbossa's crew and thus has a chance to compare Jack with more ruthless pirates. Will had probably thought Jack was ruthless, but he really had no clue...

3) In the Pearl's brig Pintel mentions,

"Ol' Bootstrap Bill. We knew him. Never sat well with Bootstrap what we did to Jack Sparrow, the mutiny and all. He said it wasn’t right with the Code. That’s why he sent off a piece of the treasure to you as it were. He said we deserved to be cursed…and remain cursed."

Now, Pintel is not only giving an account that agrees with what Will already knows about the coin (and probably what Will thinks of his father), but supposing Pintel's telling the truth, then now Will knows that Bootstrap must have been at least friendly with Jack and that it's possible for pirates to be decent (since he probably has fond memories of his dad, and if his dad actually *was* a pirate...) hence:

Ragetti : [in reference to Bootstrap] Stupid blighter.
Gibbs : Good man.

4) And then Will finally *gets* Jack's plan

Will : [sees Jack take a piece of the gold] You’ve been planning this from the beginning. Ever since you learned my name.
Jack : Yeah.

Again, notice the parallels with the situation, there are boats outside ready to kill Barbossa's men when they come out, with the possibility of ending the curse at a bad moment for Barbossa and so that everyone wins in the end. EXCEPT this time, Will knows what's going on.

I don't know what would have happened if Jack kept things less 'close to the chest', as it were, but then this story wouldn't have occured. If anything it's become a comedy of errors because both Will and Jack were *paranoid* as fuck because of their experiences.

In essence...

Will Turner is a bit stupid and very young but he isn't entirely irrational. He makes a mistake in not trusting Jack, but he didn't necessarily betray him, not with what Will knew and witnessed (remember, Will never saw, nor heard, that Elizabeth was saved by Jack).

Will is NOT perfect and he's NOT someone you could look up to, but he's realistic; I can sympathize with him and I love him as a character.

Jack : They done what’s right by them. Can’t expect more than that.

::waves Will Turner Defense League flag::

Comments

[permetaform]

hat and, as [info]wingedkiare intelligently pointed out to me, Arthurian legend's much closer to the Western...heart?...than the Iliad generally is.

ohhh. Y'know I've never thought about it like that. For me it was the otherway because I *inhaled* greek myths when I was young and only read a bit about Arthur around 8th grade.

Plus, if you demonize Will and Norrington? Then you're victimizing Jack. And Jack, of all the PotC crew, is NOT a victim.

I *like* that, that's a rocking way to put it! What's tricky tho is that Jack sometimes *acts* like a victim to make people underestimate him or is sometimes taken advantage of, but he (Jack as a *person*) isn't a victim.

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

For me it was the otherway because I *inhaled* greek myths when I was young and only read a bit about Arthur around 8th grade

I think there's also a big Brit-American dichotomy here. From what I've gathered, Arthur's still a huge, huge cultural influence on Brits, whereas over here he's more diluted. I read both Arthur and Greek myths at the same time, v. early, and maybe that's why I don't get it.

Also, 'Troy' had a single original source--the Iliad. Arthurian legend doesn't have that sense of fountainhead; there's a bunch of different versions, all carrying more or less equal weight (with the average person; I exclude specialists for obvious reasons).

What's tricky tho is that Jack sometimes *acts* like a victim to make people underestimate him or is sometimes taken advantage of, but he (Jack as a *person*) isn't a victim.

Yeah. Same issues as with Will, really--people never get beyond the surface view and really dig at the psychology.

[permetaform]

I think there's also a big Brit-American dichotomy here. From what I've gathered, Arthur's still a huge, huge cultural influence on Brits, whereas over here he's more diluted.

ohhhhhhh. Hey, where are the KA fan-people from, roughly? If there's slightly more from Britain that might prove interesting, in the same way that I wonder how many PotC-fen are near the ocean...

people never get beyond the surface view and really dig at the psychology.

::grins:: that's why we're here, ne?

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

The majority of the KA fans seem to be British; at least, the ones that speak up in meta and write fic are. The fandom's grown really fast, so I can't speak for all the lurkers. There also seems to be a tilt toward people that aren't in heavy research fields, so a lot of the meta being done quotes from general info sites, whereas in PotC there were many, many people with actual ship-experience and/or huge knowledge of the general historical time period.

Plus, just general lack of objective 5th-century AD research (read: not Roman documents) compared to PotC's time range. And this I can tell you with some certainty, given that I've been digging into the research journals.

::grins:: that's why we're here, ne?

*points to icon* Word.

[permetaform]

And this I can tell you with some certainty, given that I've been digging into the research journals.

dang, mad applause for going into the research in the first place. I've been following that in your journal and just.. dude.

see, this is why I'm a vidder more than a writer. I write vids, heh.

*points to icon* Word.

WAH. Do you realize that I haven't seen Shrek 2 yet? HOW WRONG IS THAT?!?!?

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

Well, if they're going to make me learn how to do lit searches, I might as well use it in the name of fic:)

And dude. You *must* see Shrek II. Or at least grab the soundtrack. Banderas sings 'Livin' La Vida Loca.' And he just utterly mocks it on so many levels.

[permetaform]

Banderas sings 'Livin' La Vida Loca.' And he just utterly mocks it on so many levels.

::beams:: just another reason why I love that man. and GOD, I'm going to hie me to a Blockbuster's, like NOW.

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Banderas sings 'Livin' La Vida Loca.' And he just utterly mocks it on so many levels.

Until just now, I never realised that it was possible to die of squee over a movie you've never even seen.

I so have to watch that movie the second it hits video.

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

*staring* You haven't? Oh, my God. I really need to promote this movie more.

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

No, you've done an excellent job of promoting it--I just can never get anyone at home to go to the movies with me. Hence my not having seen Shrek II or King Arthur yet.