permetaform | SGA; Beckett, Trinity, and the ATA gene

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[thoughts],
sga

SGA; Beckett, Trinity, and the ATA gene

[warning: tech babble ahead, and I explain things really badly, so please poke me if you need clarifications]

Holy. Cow.

So I mean, I've noticed a few posts where people rail at the writing of Dr. Beckett's shady medical ethics, it being bad writing of a doctor. But the more I looked at it, the more I realized that that might've been written deliberately, as part of Beckett's characterization.

I think that's part of why I love Poisoning The Well (s1.ep7) so much, because it's Beckett's version of Trinity, the scientist's sucking slow spiral downwards, and he doesn't even know he's doing it.

And if
vaccine = zero point weapon
then maybe
Hoffans = chaos particles?

Because Beckett doesn't even realize in his delight to create, create, create that he's edging towards the slippery slope from the moment he started on the project; he thinks he can help control it, and he doesn't even *think* of the possibility of the process cascading away from him. Beckett talking to Perna about the "slippery slope" is just as hilariously awful as Rodney talking about the Manhattan Project to John.

AND OH MY GOD. They! ::FLAILS and points:: That would mean that Beckett and Perna working on the WMD is like John and Rodney working on the WMD! _{::OTPs gleefully::}

Which begs the question: who is John, Beckett or Perna? XD

Or is maybe Perna = John and Zelenka? ::ponders::

Or...huh. Maybe Rodney = Perna? But in Rodney's case, John was able to save him (barely) from his obsessiveness while Beckett wasn't able to save Perna from hers?

In any case, Beckett = shady medical ethics.

And *then* I remember Hide and Seek (ep3). The ATA gene therapy of mad mad shadyness.

There's a small possibility that Beckett isolated the gene in the interm between Rising and Hide And Seek, but I find that hard to believe because everybody would be running around trying to set things up and getting everything all established, and in Beckett's case probably helping to treat whatever wounds occurred in the process.

One of the few ways that he could have developed the gene treatment in such a short amount of time is through Ancient technology. Which, what could the Ancient technology do with gene treatment?? (::COUGH::makeWraith?::COUGH::)

I find it, however, far more likely that Beckett has been working on the gene therapy for awhile, probably for the SGC. That said, why did they wait for everyone to get to Atlantis before attempting the gene therapy? (that is, besides having the narrative ability to highlight how much Atlantis loves John) They *knew* they were going to an Ancient city, and probably a one-way trip...and since it is less probable that Beckett developed the gene therapy completely on Atlantis, that must mean that it was in a state of completion or near completion while they were still on Earth.

And yet they didn't administer it before going to Atlantis? Or was it something that Beckett was hiding from the SGC, sorta like "hoarding my life's work" kinda thing?

'Cause wow, that gene therapy must be *shady* for Beckett to only be able to test in in another galaxy. o.0

Heh, and Beckett's so amiacable too!

Don't trust the quiet ones. =D

Meanwhile, it's got me to wondering what the ATA gene might be. But my memory of both references to it in canon and some of my bio is not perfect.

Thinking out-loud...

What I remember from the show:
1) It needs to be a 'complete' gene to have it affect Ancient technology.
2) Some people who have it active have it more/stronger than others.
3) there is a "mental" component that is prossibly not tied to intelligence
3a) McKay seems to have a less instinctive connection to puddlejumpers
3b) is this just because he's unfamiliar with flight?
4) Sheppard still has the strongest interface with the ATA system (is this fanon?)
4a) is this because of the mental component, or the physical?

~~(Question: I don't know where I get this from, but I have the vague feeling that the gene therapy might be only temporary? did I get tyhis from fic? ::wrinkles forehead:: does anyone know for sure?)~~ (think it might have just been Beckett doing a fake-out with Weir so that the shield would fall off Rodney)

One of the possibilities is that it's a massively reoccuring gene segment, perhaps part of the 'junk' DNA or perhaps as a sub-component of something else.

The problem with it being in 'junk' DNA is that, it's not like you'd get a cut-and-dry

DNA sequence -> Protein -> end result (ie. electrical charge or muscle contraction or ATA or whatever)

'Cause cellular reactions are not nearly that straightforward...it's more like creating the color brown or the color teal, starting with the primay colors. Under some situations, the balance of the initial colors will produce brown, in others it'll create teal; but it's a balance of multiple reactions rather than a->b

thus it's more often it's something like

gene = DNA sequence 1 & 2 & etc.-> Protein a & b & c & d & etc. -> Protein 1 & 2 & etc. & etc. -> other reactions -> end result

Which, attempting to figure out ATA gene possibilities from that would make my brain explode. Especially with trying to figure out if the gene creates proteins that would either mess with regular cellular functions or if they would be present enough to be noticible by, say, hospital labwork (and how no previous hospital has noticed disrepancy in O'Neil's results).

So I'm a bit at a loss mentally going further down the path of the "junk" DNA hypothesis because it offers too many brain-'splody dead-ends, but what if the ATA gene affected the ribosomes? Specifically in reference to the latter, I'm thinking that it might be coded in the part of the DNA that forms ribosomes; the entire nucleolus blob is just DNA with the ribosome-creation sequence repeating over and over and over again, being mass produced at least partially on-site, because there's no other way to supply the huge need for ribosomes. To state in a different way, the section of DNA that creates ribosomes repeats so often and is so active in production and replication that the nucleolus is actually visible as a cellular structure with a microscope.

And if that's not massively reoccuring, I don't know *what* is; being so prevalent, and so so prevalently copied, there's a higher probability of a naturally occuring mutation that'll create an ATA effect. But it gets complicated if you suppose major ribosome mutations because that will affect protein creation, which'll just fuck up entire branches of normal functions. (If the ATA gene was ribosome-mutation based, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ancients had a lot of miscarriages because of the high possibility of a mutation FUBARing many normal cell processes).

However, perhaps the gene just lends a teeny bit of either positive or negative charge to the ribosomes? Provided it's roughly 50-50 positive to negative charge, it could potentially cause no appreciable change in the natural charge of the cell because the charges mostly cancel each other out, plus or minus random movement that'll create more of a slight charge in one part or another of the cell. But knowing the possibility of random dipoles in the cells, it could possibly not even be an active gene in the neural network because the neural network is heavily dependant on maintaining specific charges in specific cells, and thus the ATA gene could be be un-connected to any measure of intelligence.

But here's the interesting part, the charged ribosomes might, in a way, act as a neural network of it's own, like a computer chip, like a group of stationary dipoles, because while a portion of ribosomes are free-floating, others have fixed positions and thus the charges would not be able to be easily moved/equilibrilized. In effect, every cell becomes an electrical circuit, and *that* perhaps allow posessors of the gene to interface with Ancient technology. In essence, the bodies of people with the ATA gene sorta acts like an electrical bridge, connecting the circuitry of Ancient technology directly to the brain (without the messy issue of Matrix-like brain-outlets)...

And Oh My God.

Squibs!

Ancient Squibs...is that Teyla's people? The people the Ancients left behind?

o.0 People for whom the ATA gene fouled up somewhere? Which might also help explain the scattershot appearance of the ATA gene in the Earth human population, yet none so far in the Pegasus galaxy's humans.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Well, the biochem went right over my head. But I do know that Sheppard has more ability than anyone else- that's the reason Weir wanted him on the expedition in the first place. No one else (except maybe O'Neill?) seems to be nearly as strong.

The therapy is permanent. McKay freaked out a little in Hide and Seek, but his problems with the personal shield turned out to be just in his head and he's been fine ever since. Becket had problems with the Antarctic chair- Weir thought it was because he was afraid of the weapons, and that drone did turn out to be trouble.

As far as the ethics go, would he really have had that much trouble testing the therapy on Earth? There's been some really shady stuff done at the SGC and Area 51 already.

And finally, Clarke's Law (http://www.livejournal.com/users/isiscolo/242556.html). HP/SGA, ATA=magic. Very cool fic.

Clark'e Law = awesome! =D

And I think you're right about the therapy being permanent, it seems that it was Beckett trying McKay to deactivate the personal sheild

The HP/SGA works a little too well, I think. It's this insidious thing that creeps into your brain and refuses to leave.

*is not writing a crossover. not at all.*

*is not writing a crossover. not at all.*

OH YAY! I LOVE crossovers!!

You're not exactly assisting my denial, here.

Besides. If it existed- which it doesn't- it would still be all full of mistakes and still under revision. Lines would be getting rewritten every five minutes. Not that any of that applies, though, because it doesn't exist!

*shifty look*

You never saw this. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/anthropomorfic/5106.html)

SQUEE!

I signed up for Sheppard on

crossovers100. I'm going to regret it, I know that already, but it ought to be a fun way to go.

Beckett = Rodney, Perna = the solar system that Rodney blew up most of. :-)

I think, argh, somewhere in canon it says that he's been working on the gene therapy from before Rising.

Oooooooooh, hadn't thought of it like that!

heee! poor Perna...

Oh hey, did SG1 ever end up using the gene therapy??

I don't know - I don't watch that show. But e.g. when Everett arrives, he has the gene via the therapy, so it's in use by the SGC, at least.

That's neat (although the actual science goes right over my head XD).

I have the vague feeling that the gene therapy might be only temporary?

I vaguely remember Beckett saying something like that could be possible in the episode with the personal shield and the energy eating black thing but he's really only reassuring Rodney with lies? Not true but enough to leave the feeling? (Unless I'm utterly wrong of course.)

I think you're right though! 'cause he and Weir were eyeballing each other over Rodney's spazzing when they said it.

You don't know me, but I wanted to say I'm loving your SGA squee and meta. I wasn't around when everyone started falling for SGA in 2004, so I'm happy to have someone who's both chatty and new to SGA like me.

Yay! ATA gene stuff!

For reference, when asked by McKay to tell him more about the ATA gene in "Hide and Seek," Beckett says:

We believe ATA or Ancient technology activation is caused by a single gene that's always on, instructing various cells in the body to produce a series of proteins and enzymes that interact with the skin, the nervous system, and the brain.

I know next to nothing about genetics, but that seems fairly conclusive, right?

What I can do is speculate about why the expression of the ATA gene seems stronger in some. Because I'm too lazy to type stuff up again and again, I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote in the GW forums:

Sheppard's ATA gene expression is somehow stronger because either he has two codominant alleles where most everybody else has only one and a "blank" section of junk DNA (the chances worked out to Sheppard being something like one-in-a-billion) or the ATA gene is expressed more like height, i.e. by contribution of many different genetic sequences, and Sheppard's expression is just better, period. (There's genetic mumbo jumbo about promoter sequences and whatnot, but let's not get into that. ^^;;)

Possibly in conjunction with having a stronger natural ATA gene, Sheppard's mental and emotional control makes it easier for him to interface with Ancient technology. He's not scared of the stuff like Beckett and, more importantly, doesn't overthink things. He's intelligent and proactive, yes, but just does whatever it is he needs to do with, say, the jumper or control chair without worrying much about the how of it.

(Within the framework of my pet crack theory that Atlantis and, to a lesser degree, all Ancient technology has a sort of sea-consciousness, Sheppard simply doesn't fight the interface. He meshes with the technology, then directs and channels it clearly and instinctually without micromanaging.)

How did this all come about? Either a statistically improbable number of people in Sheppard's family tree carried the ATA gene, and the gene's expression was, contrary to logic, strengthened with every generation until its current superduper form in Sheppard or there's an honest-to-God Ancient somewhere relatively recent in Sheppard's lineage. (For wow factor, I vote for time-traveling Janus.)

That's the gist of what I think about ATA.

There's a little additional stuff about the connection between the Ancients and we humans. Beckett explains in "Rising" that humans are the "second evolution" of the Ancients, and Janus says much the same in "Before I Sleep." In SG-1, IIRC, the Asgard considered O'Neill a somehow higher evolution because of his ATA gene. Or something. I haven't actually watched SG-1. :p

All this combined with the fact that the Ancients "seeded" both the Milky Way and Pegasus for life in our form seems to indicate humans will eventually evolve into Ancients. It's possible, then, that the weaker forms of the gene occur naturally within the human population while people like O'Neill and Sheppard are descended from Ancients of the first evolution. There's been no sign of the ATA gene in Pegasus because the natives there have not had so long as the humans of the Milky Way to evolve, having been seeded after the Ancients left Earth.

"The Tower"

Now that I've scared everyone off... ^^;;

P.S. 1.07 is "Poisoning the Well." You've got a minor mistake in the title.

Yay! ::glomps:: I'm glad that there's new people too, squee is always fun...though I'm trying to avoid spoilers so apologies for not responding to anything in The Tower.

We believe ATA or Ancient technology activation is caused by a single gene that's

always on, instructing various cells in the body to produce a series of proteins and

enzymes that interact with the skin, the nervous system, and the brain.

Ooo, that does help! Though the tricky thing would also be the fact that a gene is

frequently composed of several different DNA sequences. *However*, if it's always

on, there might be less possibility that it's a dormant part of the 'Junk' DNA (dormant

in normal people), and also less possibility that it's an active part of 'Junk' DNA

(though it's more possible that it was isolated very quickly, it might end up

problematic if the ATA appears in hospital labwork or cell research. Then again

maybe the SGC's always keeping an eye on various labs.)

From those words, I'm assuming that its separate and distinct proteins and enzymes

from what people without the ATA gene would have...but I also wonder how much

the proteins and enzymes act directly. Most proteins and enzymes causes a cascade

of reactions, not all proteins made is the final product (oftentimes proteins and

enzymes exist only to modify other proteins and enzymes, such as adding a charge or

adding a subgroup, instead of producing an immediate reaction).

I think certain major differences between your post to the GW forums and mine is

how much we're attributing the wide range of abilities with the ATA gene to biology

versus a mental factor. With it being based on codominant alleles; that brings up the

possibility of many people possessing the ATA gene only it's suppressed, and that's

why Beckett's gene therapy works so well, and that possessing the ATA gene allows

an automatic interface with the ATA-based technology and that the composition of

one's mental state would allow for greater or lesser interaction with the technology.

Which is a cool idea, because it makes me wonder if Beckett might have simply given

people a placebo? And just the *belief* that they have the gene allows them to

work the technology because they posess the gene already? (and maybe THAT's

why Beckett was so cavalier about giving their Head Scientist 'gene therapy',

because it *isn't*?)

(I'm totally with you on the idea of the sea consciousness tho! 'cause yes, so

true.)

But anyhoo, in contrast is if the gene occurs somewhere in the DNA that codes for

ribosomes (ie. rDNA)...then the wide range of ATA gene response is at least partially due to the

biological incidence of the gene. SO many different copies of the ribosome gene is

present in the nucleolus that I wouldn't be surprised if the gene occurs naturally (esp.

since Ancients are human-derivatives) and in my pet theory what I think might be missing is a gene "initializing" (with an ATA component) the correct copy of the ribosome. (and thus basically turning the human body into a computer chip)

All this combined with the fact that the Ancients "seeded" both the Milky Way and Pegasus for life in our form seems to indicate humans will eventually evolve into Ancients. It's possible, then, that the weaker forms of the gene occur naturally within the human population while people like O'Neill and Sheppard are descended from Ancients of the first evolution. There's been no sign of the ATA gene in Pegasus because the natives there have not had so long as the humans of the Milky Way to evolve, having been seeded after the Ancients left Earth.

Y'know with your previous comment about the mental component...is being Ascended as much about a frame of mind as it is anything else? Because in Aurora the Ancients are being coded as Star Trek, and in Sanctuary Chaya mentions that she's basically under the Prime Directive...

Yay! ::glomps:: I'm glad that there's new people too, squee is always fun...

‹glomps› Right back at you! I'm, er, actually not so good at squeeing though. I lurk too much and then, when I do post anything, it's... verbose. Too thinky. ^^;;

I think certain major differences between your post to the GW forums and mine is how much we're attributing the wide range of abilities with the ATA gene to biology versus a mental factor.

This is probably because I know essentially nothing about biology. And I can admit that! I can! So, generally, I try to stay away from spinning any theories about things I don't get (or can't fake a passable understanding of).

With it being based on codominant alleles; that brings up the possibility of many people possessing the ATA gene only it's suppressed, and that's why Beckett's gene therapy works so well...

How does the apparent rarity of the natural ATA gene work with 47%, 48% of the Atlantis gene therapy recipients having some suppressed form though? I mean, without getting into semi-mystical explanations about the City of the Ancients drawing back its children or anything.

(I'm totally with you on the idea of the sea consciousness tho! 'cause yes, so true.)

(Yes, I adore the concept of a somehow sentient Atlantis. That wonderfully intimate and sensuous human-technology interface is too cool for me to let go. Spent a fair amount of time debating the merits of a sharp AI versus supercomputer protocols versus something less defined, how the city having "emotions" would affect things, and whether the Ancients designed Atlantis this way or awareness was an accident. See, as much as I enjoy reading fics where Atlantis is sulky or jealous, I'm not sure the city could actually feel such... )

But anyhoo, in contrast is if the gene occurs somewhere in the DNA that codes for ribosomes (ie. rDNA)... [snip] in my pet theory what I think might be missing is a gene "initializing" (with an ATA component) the correct copy of the ribosome. (and thus basically turning the human body into a computer chip)

Oookay. I'm not sure what the biology babble says, but I like the idea that the Earthlings have evolved to the point where a fair segment of the population is missing just a little extra bit that's the key to having some workable form of the ATA gene.

Beckett's gene therapy, then, supplies that missing bit, but even that won't work unless you already have the rest. Whatever that may be. So, those with a weak natural gene evolved the genetic key to the key, so to speak, on their own. Beckett successfully speeds up the evolutionary process, to a degree, for those that are already close. Which leaves the rare strong gene cases like Sheppard, and I think assuming direct descent from the Ancients—who presumably had an even further evolved version of the ATA gene—covers that.

You know, I really like this. It's taking into account the relationship of the Ancients to us humans and working on the ATA gene issue from both ends.

Y'know with your previous comment about the mental component...is being Ascended as much about a frame of mind as it is anything else? Because in Aurora the Ancients are being coded as Star Trek, and in Sanctuary Chaya mentions that she's basically under the Prime Directive...

I have no idea. I imagine there's more on Ascension in SG-1. There was that... incident with Daniel. For SGA, there was that energy-eating shadow thing in "Hide and Seek" that the Ancients were apparently researching and the planet of the mist people. The mist people implies a fairly big mental component to the whole thing, but something must be happening physically, right? I have no idea. I really don't.

man, like *I* have stones to throw over being thinky. ::wry grin::

How does the apparent rarity of the natural ATA gene work with 47%, 48% of the Atlantis gene therapy recipients having some suppressed form though?

I'm not sure, thought maybe it could be blamed on the gene therapy itself? As in, people with a less strong immune system (like McKay's) would accept the gene therapy to a high enough degree that the ATA would work?

See, as much as I enjoy reading fics where Atlantis is sulky or jealous, I'm not sure the city could actually feel such...

Man...I really want to read a fic where Atlantis sorta kinda has an odd fondness for McKay; only like, it likes *teasing* him; so he has to go fetch Sheppard.

( It also likes to *watch*. ::gigglefit::

XD)

Beckett's gene therapy, then, supplies that missing bit, but even that won't work unless you already have the rest.

::nods:: Cell protein and enzyme balancing is so fine tuned and interconnected that it would be difficult to introduce an entirely new protein that might fuck up entire branches of cellular reactions. I'm partially surprised that none of Beckett's gene therapy went horribly wrong anywhere (or maybe they're saving it for a later season...)

You know, I really like this. It's taking into account the relationship of the Ancients to us humans and working on the ATA gene issue from both ends.

::nodnodnod::

I have no idea. I imagine there's more on Ascension in SG-1. There was that... incident with Daniel. For SGA, there was that energy-eating shadow thing in "Hide and Seek" that the Ancients were apparently researching and the planet of the mist people. The mist people implies a fairly big mental component to the whole thing, but something must be happening physically, right? I have no idea. I really don't.

Ohhh, true! Maybe the SG1 people might be able to throw in some insight. The thing with the mist people and the shadow, is that I wonder if it isn't that they're entire bodies are already so electical based that they don't need the ATA gene? or maybe the Ancients were trying to research ways of becoming more...ahum, electrical-based beings than they already are?

man, like *I* have stones to throw over being thinky. ::wry grin::

LOL! I suppose that's true. I just get nervous because I know I tend to blather on and on. Often without ever quite getting to a point. I'd like to avoid giving people the impression I'm stupid if at all possible. :p

As in, people with a less strong immune system (like McKay's) would accept the gene therapy to a high enough degree that the ATA would work?

I have no clue! Yay! ^^;; It hurts my brain to consider how something like the ATA gene therapy would interact with and affect the rest of the body.

Man...I really want to read a fic where Atlantis sorta kinda has an odd fondness for McKay; only like, it likes *teasing* him; so he has to go fetch Sheppard.

Strange Dreams (http://www.wraithbait.com/viewstory.php?sid=3382), by Kitanne, has a short blurb along those lines. That's the only one I can think of right now, but I'm sure there are others...

It also likes to *watch*. ::gigglefit:: XD

Atlantis probably doesn't need to watch, per se. See, it's not clear exactly how... jacked into the city someone with the ATA gene is on a minute-to-minute basis. A lot of fics portray Sheppard's connection with Atlantis as being a sort of constant low-level awareness, and I imagine if that's the case, er, everything would feed directly into Atlantis. Reminds me of... that one fic where power around the city flickers whenever John and Rodney spend quality time together, lol.

Oookay. Back to the ATA gene. :p

I read the discussion you've got going with

tardis80, and I think between the two threads, there's a pretty good picture of how the gene might work.

I'm partially surprised that none of Beckett's gene therapy went horribly wrong anywhere (or maybe they're saving it for a later season...)

Well... Wait. No spoilers, right? :)

Have you read

miss_porcupine's ATA gene fic (http://www.livejournal.com/users/miss_porcupine/97092.html)? I thought that was a nice, realistic look at the whole thing.

The thing with the mist people and the shadow, is that I wonder if it isn't that they're entire bodies are already so electical based that they don't need the ATA gene? or maybe the Ancients were trying to research ways of becoming more...ahum, electrical-based beings than they already are?

Yeah, I again have no idea. Besides that the Ascended look like a glowy fog, what else do we know about that form? And then there's Chaya and Sam's Ancient boyfriend, who both took human form. Chaya, at least, had no problem activating that control panel Grodin was working on when she was solid, but I'm not sure we can conclude she did so using the same biological/mental processes as, say, John. There's no way to tell. Hm. This is kind of a dead end without TPTB giving us more information.

EEE! Thank you for the recs! And as for looking stupid ::flails:: man, I've given up on that regarding my own actions. I figure that if I don't smack myself into letting myself be stupid I'd never ever post about anything, so I just flail. =)

Her ATA gene fic was wonderful! Thank you for pointing me there.

Chaya, at least, had no problem activating that control panel Grodin was working on when she was solid, but I'm not sure we can conclude she did so using the same biological/mental processes as, say, John. There's no way to tell. Hm. This is kind of a dead end without TPTB giving us more information.

::nodnodnod:: And there's no way to tell if her human form was just an illusion or actually a materialized form of her Ascended form.

Oh hey, have you seen SG1 then? What is the general attitude/subtext towards the Ancients there?? I've noticed this deeply subversive thread of the Ancient's ethical dubiousness running throughout SGA and I wonder if that's specific to SGA or if it's present in SG1 too.

EEE! Thank you for the recs!

Happy to be of service. I can't fic, art, or vid, so the least I could do is help people find stuff. :)

I highly recommend everything

miss_porcupine's written. While I enjoy a good slash fic as much as the next reader, I'm love gen with the fiery passion of a thousand Big Bangs, and she and

ltlj are among my favorite gen writers in SGA. She's got a few, very nice fics coming off "The Lost Boys," and her and

smittywing's work on Sheppard's military career is really, really cool. There's even a great sentient!Atlantis fic.

Oh hey, have you seen SG1 then? What is the general attitude/subtext towards the Ancients there?? I've noticed this deeply subversive thread of the Ancient's ethical dubiousness running throughout SGA and I wonder if that's specific to SGA or if it's present in SG1 too.

'Fraid not. I mean, I've never watched more than scattered episodes of SG-1. I get the impression that SG-1 held the Ancients on more of pedestal than SGA though. There probably wasn't much about the Ancients to begin with, and likely they were the oh-so-mysterious and powerful gatebuilders. Then again, the no-interference policy of the Ascended and the whole deal with... Anubis? Whatever. Those were probably good hints the Ancients weren't so benign.

I wish I could tell you more. There's got to be somebody around here that knows SG-1...

...methinks I'll make a post and then send the link to

sga_newsletter?

You have now inspired me to read the rest of my biology textbook so I can understand the second half of the explanation because I really really want to know what it means. Your Bio babble (Is that a phrase yet?) rocks my tie-died socks.

heee! I'm glad you like.

'Cause wow, that gene therapy must be *shady* for Beckett to only be able to test in in another galaxy. o.0

Doesn't he actually tell Rodney (in Hide and Seek) that he's not able to test it on earth because of regulations about its safety?

(via newsletter link, going to read the hard bits again now to see if I can understand them *g*)

o.0 does he? I don't remember it well at this point...but here's also a question, have they introduced the gene therapy on Earth yet? 'cause I'd figure that SGC might need it too...

Yes, he does:

MCKAY: Well why now? I mean if it's possible. You knew we needed as many people with the gene as we could get.

BECKETT: Well actually with out proper FDA approval, virtually impossible on earth to.*looks at McKay's face* let's just say it's uh legal here in the Pegasus galaxy

(From http://www.moon-catchin.net/gatenoise/sgatranscripts/s1/103hideandseek.htm)

oh neat! Thank you for giving a quote! ::glomps::

I always have to laugh at people who think Beckett's a great example of medical ethics. The man is downright scary! I mean, we have the ATA gene treatment, Hoff, and the wraith retrovirus. This is the man who referred to a teenaged girl as a "cooperative test subject."

So, so, SO very not the pinnacle of medical research ethics.

And, frankly, I think that adds a huge depth to the character that he's so sweet and charming and caring and empathic and has absolutely no morals when it comes to genetic research. That last just hits you like a punch to the gut because it's so unexpected.

And, frankly, I think that adds a huge depth to the character that he's so sweet and charming and caring and empathic and has absolutely no morals when it comes to genetic research. That last just hits you like a punch to the gut because it's so unexpected.

Yes! ::glomps:: exactly! It's like a teddy bear that you turn around and oh hey the claws are *real*. I love how SGA switches up and messes with your expectations. =D

It is, after all, a TV show and equating the background with biology and physics is, at best, like equating twinkies with real food.

That aside, the idea that you can take a ribosome, mess it up minorly, and still have the segments fit together and manage to actually maniputlate RNA and protein chains sufficiently well that you can manage to still manufacture the entire protein compliment of a cell without screwing up something really crucial is pretty unlikely. But as a theory goes it's just as good as any other explaining the ATA gene.

Really though, that has little to do with Carson and his medical ethics. About as much as a lot of the FDA has to do with medical ethics. We do, after all, have lots of lovely examples of drugs that shouldn't be on the market because the FDA didn't exactly play by their own rules.

More to the point, in the situation that the expedition finds itself in, they don't have the luxury of modern Western medical ethics. they are 200 people fighting a race of millions of creatures whose sole goal is to use humans as snack food. It's kill or be eaten. There isn't any wiggle room, it's not like deciding to be vegetarian is a viable option for the Wraith. Sure, they could be a lot more compassionate about how they deal with their food supply, then again, I'm not seeing feedlots as a whole lot nicer than culling.

So what do you do? Well the reality is that the only really viable options for the expedition are WMD. They are 200 people, or 400 or however many there are now that contact is established. So what do they do? Well, you find options. One is bioligical WMD. And it's a good one because as soon as you develop it and you disperse it ( I am thinking on or in existing human populations) you contaminate the ENTIRE food supply. It may take a while but, poof! no more Wraith.

So I can see why Rodney was so hot to get the Arcturus weapon working. It would have been a great weapon if it could have been aimed at all the hive ships. Once again, poof! the Wraith are gone and humans aren't Cheetos.

The only other option is to leave. Yup, leave and not come back for oh say, 100 years. The wraith are all waking up and they are doing the equivalent of gorging themselves. It's a stupid scenario given that if they don't find the way to earth they will starve. They'll eat the last humans in Pegasus and they'll die. So really, the eaiste thing to do would be strip Atlantis of every bit of tech available and get the hell out of dodge, destroy the city and any record of the location of earth, leaving the humans in Pegasus as acceptable losses.

Nope, this is not about the luxury of medical ethics. It's not even about the luxury of ethical warfare (as if there were such a thing). Our system of ethics doesn't have provisions for this kind of situation. There is no negotiation, no reasoning, no agreeing to a DMZ - you live your life I'll live mine. It's pure self-defense, someone has to die and as far as humans are concerned, it's the Wraith. At least that puts both sides on an equal footing. No one here is thinking of the others in a different philosophical light.

As for Carson, it's pretty clear in the ep that he is working to help make them immune to the wraith, not to kill the wraith outright (though the end result is the same if you extrapolate outward.) That isn't, IMO, the real issue. The real ethical dilemma in this is whether or not what the hoffans developed will cause widespread destruction of other worlds sooner than they would have been culled. It's fine for the hoffans to risk their own necks, but ignoring the arguement of collateral damage is their ethical downfall. Then again, when you are about to become the entree at Thanksgiving dinner, I'm thinking you really don't spend a lot of time worrying aobut the turkey's out in the pen.

More interesting to me, bioligically is the total improbablity of the existence of the wraith to begin with. Now there is something unexplainable.

=) I like overthinking and speculating.

That aside, the idea that you can take a ribosome, mess it up minorly, and still have the segments fit together and manage to actually maniputlate RNA and protein chains sufficiently well that you can manage to still manufacture the entire protein compliment of a cell without screwing up something really crucial is pretty unlikely.

Exactly, that's partially why I think the Ancients are so keen on gaining immortality, 'cause their birth rates are so miniscule.

The thing with SGA is that (imo) I think it's one for being very strong on showing real people, who are sympathetic, sometimes brilliant, and often stupid or otherwise flawed. It may be a crisis situation, but there's always that line about what you're willing to do to win, and sometimes the cost is not worth it. It's about, as much, what happens when they *win* as when they lose; what will the US gov do with the weapon had Rodney succeeded and all the Wraith are dead? What did the Hoffans do with the vaccine, once Beckett produced it?

On what level is it ethically feasible to do harm to an intelligent being, even if it does mean you harm? In some ways I see the Wraith v. humans as also a culture war, someone's going to lose in the end, because in this situation compromise is impossible. What then?

That isn't, IMO, the real issue. The real ethical dilemma in this is whether or not what the hoffans developed will cause widespread destruction of other worlds sooner than they would have been culled.

That's sorta what both storylines (carson's and sheppard's) in that episode added up to, like the way Trinity added up to a betrayal of trust when you compare both plots. On a single character level, Trinity and Poisoning The Well is similar for their character study on McKay and Beckett.

More interesting to me, bioligically is the total improbablity of the existence of the wraith to begin with. Now there is something unexplainable.

mmm, actually there's been several good theories floating around. Several of them have the Wraith as being an experiment-gone-wrong made by the Ancients with the wraith-bug. An interesting theory put forth by

adrienne2 is that they were created as a form of population control that got totally out of hand.

This is intersting considering how...gah, I forgot who, but they made the comparison that the 'look' of the Wraith victims is similar to a disease that weakens the cell membranes. A weakening of the membranes could theoretically allow the Wraith to consume the cellular proteins and DNA of a person, as well as the residual glucose and whatnot. Not only does this help explain the Wraith's regenerative abilities, but it also would mean that the Wraith don't lose any energy digesting and converting food-energy to biologically-useable-energy; the Wraith is getting the energy already converted by human cells.

And being that the Wraith is potentially derived partially from human/Ancient stock, that would be why they can only feed on humans; because animal cell proteins and DNA is enough incompatible that the feeding process can't take place.

hi, i just lurked over from SGA newsletter, but wanted to offer my thoughts on the subject.

i think i read in a fic somewhere (i think by tarlan) that the gene therapy didn't give rodney the ATA gene, but it coded for an activator for the gene. so that got me to thinking, what if what carson calls the ATA gene actually involves a whole family of genes, coding for different proteins in a cellular cascade signaling mechanism? there are so many proteins involved in a cellular cascade: receptors, g-proteins, kinases, downstream signaling molecules, corepressors, coactivators...maybe that's why the gene therapy isn't working for everyone, it doesn't give them all the necessary parts. and it works less efficaciously for people like beckett or mckay because they have fewer receptors or other molecules.
of course that leaves the question of the first signal which sets off the cascade. do the ancient machines give off certain chemicals? is there some electromagnetic thing that triggers an paracrine or an endocrine response? another question is the final protein product and how it allows the device to do what the gene carrier wants. which i find i must employ suspension of disbelief.

/longwinded musing
hehe. your opinions were interesting. in retrospect: if poisoning the well was beckett's trinity, how come the others didn't give him as hard a time ass they did rodney?

the gene therapy didn't give rodney the ATA gene, but it coded for an activator for the gene.

::nods:: that's what I was getting at with the ribosome activation in the post. I got too lazy to actually go into micro-bio terms 'cause I figured that it was already technical enough. ::wry grin::

maybe that's why the gene therapy isn't working for everyone, it doesn't give them all the necessary parts

Ohhh! That's a valid point! That'll make sense if maybe there's a residual background of ATA ability in some people anyways? Like maybe people all have the potential, and some don't, and that accounts for the 50% success rate?

do the ancient machines give off certain chemicals?

!! ooo! I hadn't considered that! I think there's a chance of that happening, though I would wonder that the scientists haven't already picked up that the ancient machines were releasing something into the people in contact with them. I'm more inclined to go with your comment about electromagnetic signal triggering a biological response, again partially 'cause I'd think that the scientist would notice if the machines where giving off something.

another question is the final protein product and how it allows the device to do what the gene carrier wants.

This is why I think that whatever final response the gene produces only acts as a bridge between the surface of Ancient tech and the surface of the brain, which is part of my ribosome theory. Like you, I really don't think that the gene affects mental capabilities or that it can read the gene carrier's mind either.

how come the others didn't give him as hard a time ass they did rodney?

I think it's 'cause Beckett's "chaos particles" (ie. the Hoffans) are sentient. Even though they're a factor that acts contrary to his logic, they made their own choices which takes part of the blame off Beckett. McKay didn't have that, all the choices were his own.

Not touching the rest of this because SGA science is not Earth science, much like Buffy says about logic, but to this: "Ancient Squibs...is that Teyla's people? The people the Ancients left behind?"

At least some Athosians have the gene -- Jinto, Halling's son, does, as he's the one that reactivates the containment unit in Hide and Seek and releases the black fog being.

- Andrea.

Not touching the rest of this because SGA science is not Earth science, much like Buffy says about logic,

=) I like to speculate and my brain works best on pattern recognition.

At least some Athosians have the gene -- Jinto, Halling's son, does, as he's the one that reactivates the containment unit in Hide and Seek and releases the black fog being.

Oh! Awesome, I forgot about that, thank you!

I haven't watched "Hide and Seek," but I'd have figured any of the Athosians having the gene would be a bigger deal. As it is, there's been no mention that I can remember of any of the Pegasus natives being able to actually activate Ancient tech. I think "Hide and Seek" is also the episode where we find out some of the city's functions work fine for anyone. The transporters, for example. Isn't it possible Jinto tripped some automatic protocol with his presence that released the shadow thing?

Oh, wow, I never got this! *laughs*

But to respond, belatedly, for something to do used by a non-ATA person it has to be previously activated, then anyone can use them -- the lights, for example. However, with the... containment unit when it was activated it would have released the fog being.

I'm not just guessing here *laughs* because they do mention that, that Jinto accidentally let it out, but also because we've seen one of those containment units before, in SG-1. Which was already semi-active and still had to be manipulated to allow a release of the subjects. In this case Jonas, who was synthetically given Ancient-like abilities (on a genetic level) by a third-party, was the one who activated it. [This was before they had a name or the concept for the ATA gene so it's never directly confirmed that he has it but it'd be a hard argument to say he doesn't, given abilities that crop up later.]

- Andrea.

Don't trust the quiet ones. =D

Heh, like a certain *other* healer we know. *G*

Also. Have been skimming your journal constantly, and now am *DELIGHTED* to be going back through all your nummy posts and reading, piecemeal, in more detail, as I watch the show. Today was 1 & 2, FINALLY (I gave up on waiting to watch it with this impossible-to-schedule friend of mine) and downloading like twelve eps, no joke.

Tomorrow I hope to get through seven. *G*

*twirls* Yay on this show. Now I just need to find someone who's got 8-11, and *not* through YSI 'cause they are getting *good* at killing transfers ded. XF

Heh, like a certain *other* healer we know. *G*

::grins:: yup. Oh god, wait till you get to The Storm/The Eye...

And huh, yeah, I don't know how to get eps except via yousendit...hmmm. But I should be getting my hands on the dvds soon, I'll see if I can burn you a copy.

Oh god, wait till you get to The Storm/The Eye...

*_* *pokepoke* nooooouu way can you tease me like that and leave me hanging. *sighs* At least on the upside, I've got all of season one DL'ed short of those two eps (ironic, that), and those are just beginning....slooooowly....now.

...OMG dvds. O_O

In the meantime (and oh, dude, I'd owe you for eons for that, repayment beginning here? And this reminds me I'm *still* too poor and large-box-less to send your watercolor pad, which is sitting *next* to me right now, urk), I don't know if you know of this

htp://sgeps.arithmancy.net/directory/

or this

htp://www.infinitepassions.com/media/sgafiles/

yet. For the former, you'd need the name puddle and pass jumper. They're both static directories of episodes often linked to on stargate_eps, so I had assumed you knew of them already. If you want to DL, go to stargate_eps and find the posts from the owners (i know that the first directory is owned by isiscolo, to help your search). DL from the links provided there, so that their referring stats show that it's all good and you're paying homage to the comm and all that. Or, just copy-and-paste instead of clicking here so they *have* no referring link. *nods*

okay! so I finally figured out my dvd burner and have everything up to Epiphany (with the exception of season1 ep 9, I don't know what I did with that ep o.0) ready to go to you. Disc 3 has a crapload of dj's, vids, random pics, and every piece of music currently on my hd because I felt bad for only using half a disc...and basically about half the music on my hd is earmarked for vid-making so now you sorta have a preview. =)

Is your address the same as the other one? or is it new? (or just email it to kanzeyori@yahoo.com just in case anyway?)

.....*jaw on the floor* Um. Ummmm. SGA and Perma-music and vids and shit and MUSIC and SGA and...*fizz*

~~Irrationally my brain points out I can YSI you 109.~~

Wow. Thank you. I'm - wow. *glomps!* Dunno what I did to deserve being taken such good care of by you, but I'm so very thankful!!!! ♥!

Send to...Hm. The Pittsburgh address. If that's not the one you have already, then there's a contact info link in my userinfo...*digs* here you go.

And um. Again. WOW. Thank you. SO much. You seriously just made my week, even *despite* the fact the screen's all swimmy 'cause I'm sick. ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

SGA; Beckett, Trinity, and the ATA gene

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Lurker here:

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Inspired

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I think everyone overthinks this....

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my thoughts on the ATA gene

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