::lightbulb:: anime vids v. live action vids (internal motion and accessible vidding)

[permetaform]

This is a theory, and I might just be talking out of my ass, but I think I *might* know why anime vids tend towards the seizure inducing.

Part of the problem is that the *average* anime watcher appears to listen to music that moves along at a fair clip. To find an anime vid that uses slow music is *extremely* rare.

But part of the problem is inherent within the source itself.

Namely, regarding anime source, it's far more difficult to create internal motion in anime than in live action. For live action source, it's the opposite (it's far more difficult to create external motion).

<sub>[internal motion: motion that occurs within the scene. ex. shooting gun, falling body, kicking]

[external motion: camera movement. ex. zoom, pan, rotate]</sub>

But see, that's not a problem with live action vidding; the vidder can create external motion by manipulating the source clips. (want more info? I've written how-to's here and here)

But, for the opposite problem in anime source, how do you create internal motion? You can fiddle around with masks (but that uses already present source) or you photoshop frame by frame (which is utterly insane).

To keep up with the speed and movement of a song, an anime vidder is therefore forced to fall back on creating more external motion themselves, ie. tons of effects and fast clipping.

And honestly, part of issue is also with how much closer the average anime vidder works with the music. The rhythm, timing, and the way they correlate to the visuals are vital in a community that doesn't give similar weight to storytelling. It is vital in a community where near *everyone* is pan-fandom and yet highly likely to have never seen the anime you're vidding. (As for live action vidding, aLOT more weight is given to the story, and in general vidders are vidding for people very familiar with the source.)

Incidentally, I think that making a vid strong in rhythm and timing, and making it visually interesting (through effects and through penetrable clip choice) is one of the surest ways to make your vid accessible to people unfamiliar with the fandom.

ie. fill it with The Shiny!

_{['penetrable clip choice': made up description to refer to clips easily understandable by new viewers.
Example: the shot on "one hand clapping" for Jig of Life by shallot. It makes sense visually, relating the sound of a gun clap to the idea of a hand clap, even though I don't know the context of the scene]}

[]

Happy Birthday siobhan_w, pandarus, potterwitch, isagel, and rozfics! May your years be filled with color and song! =)

Comments

[sithjawa.livejournal.com]

Indeed, a lot of AMVs use multiple sources. I think you're on to something there.

I still haven't managed to download any of your videos. The servers are always clogged. :(

[permetaform]

well, The Fragile and Why are temporarily offline but check your mail for a link for Lucky You.

[sithjawa.livejournal.com]

Sweet, thanks! Wow :)

Random comment: I don't find the transitions in AMVs particularly epilepsy-inducing... I think that's because anime usually feels more self-similar than photorealistic material. if you showed me 50 stills from the same anime in rapid succession, I'd probably be a lot less disoriented than if you showed me 50 photographs the same way.

Random comment 2: That's actually the first non-anime vid I've seen. Although the feel was different from AMVs, it didn't feel any "slower" ...

[permetaform]

you have a point about the photographs vs. anime thing, and I was thinking possibly having something to do with the color quality too? There's alot of browns in live action, more so than in anime.

And yay! non-slowness! heh, tho I actually group Lucky You with the 'faster' category of songs, because of the base-beat, though the lyrics are on the slow side.

OH! and have you seen Mitternacht by Pwolf (Scott Grasso)!??!? I just saw it. Mind blown.

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

:) In my little mini-lecture on anime vids at a party at Vividcon, I actually talked about exactly that -- how because of the cost of animation and the speed of production, anime tended to rely on external movement and color washes to create movement/indicate mood, because it's faster and cheaper than having to draw internal movement -- especially if something goes wrong.

Maybe I should put up my notes for the Private Anime Vid Show That Never Was.

[permetaform]

ooo! please? I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on it!

[thuviaptarth.livejournal.com]

Okay. Maybe after I finish notes on the vid shows that actually happened. ;)

[tanacawyr.livejournal.com]

To keep up with the speed and movement of a song, an anime vidder is therefore forced to fall back on creating more external motion themselves, ie. tons of effects and fast clipping.

This is interesting -- When Elke got back from VividCon she brought a ton of vids with her, and I was really surprised at how flashy the anime vids were. I kept seeing vids as being done in the style of live action and thinking, "What in gawdz name can an anime vidder do?"

Every damned thing under the sun, apparently. They can have a lot more fun. I watched a few and ended up envying them their freedom to muck with their source, although the way you've said it here, it's not really freedom since the best way to make the vid snappy and interesting is to muck with the source.

[permetaform]

I watched a few and ended up envying them their freedom to muck with their source, although the way you've said it here, it's not really freedom since the best way to make the vid snappy and interesting is to muck with the source.

Yup. Much more freedom with the source, but considerably less original internal motion to work with. I'm thinking that might be why there's so much lip-syncing, too, 'cause it's easy for animators to create lip movement and so there's lots of that type of motion.

[adina-atl.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to let you know that, while I've never made a vid myself, I find your discourses on vidding absolutely fascinating. I'm a very occasional and rather passive watcher of vids, and, well, I would have never picked up on any of this myself. Thanks.

[permetaform]

thank you! I'm glad they're still readable by the non-vidder. I swear to god sometimes I think it's like it's own fandom...

[spacefille.livejournal.com]

Hmm... interesting! I've never been able to make a live action music video myself (though I've wanted to!) What you say makes a lot of sense.

The rhythm, timing, and the way they correlate to the visuals are vital in a community that doesn't give similar weight to storytelling.

Ergh, even though I see what you mean here, heck I do it too, (rhythm and timing) I insist on giving similar weight in my AMVs. (Black Black Heart at least, I'm going to completely exclude my Invader Zim music videos though, those were just for fun/humor.)

I may not be the popular opinion but I consider a good AMV to be one that tells me a story and doesn't cloud up the emotion with overly flashy bits. A good example of an AMV (to me) would be the Memories one done to "Phantom of the Opera". Another would be the Trigun one to "Eden". Both of those made me WANT to watch the anime involved.
I got a story out of both, and they both were extremely well edited. I was very happy. :)

[permetaform]

I LOVE the Eden one! Thought that was fantastic, and I need to hunt down the Phantom of the Opera one. Do you have any more recs? I've found that the average live action vid is better storywise but has a higher chance of not taking advantage of the beat and vice versa for the average anime vids and it's only when you get the better ones of both do you get a decent crossover...

[spacefille.livejournal.com]

Hmmm.... Well, Gundam Wing "Invincible" by Hot Fudge Productions was quite good. I liked the Trigun "alone in the world" one as well.

As for anything else all my other big favs are humor. :)

[permetaform]

::bounces at the recs and goes to download::

[absolutedestiny.livejournal.com]

If you are looking for good amvs with less beat-matched high-action flashiness then you might be interested in some of the following:

Video Girl Ai: The Fall by Lostboy
Storytelling by um... me (and to a lesser extent Memories of Love and Conflict too.
Playground Love by Nightowl Pictures
Blackbird by Zabet
Transcending Love by Vlad Pohnert (masks 3 different shows to make its own narrative)

And of course a shitload of old school videos that I can't think of right now - especially 2-vcr videos. I'm sure there's many many more.

I do agree that the footage does define a very different sort of editing. If I had some server space I'd upload my few live action videos for comparison with the amvs I do. Maybe I'll get to Vividcon next year - I only just heard about it but was happy to see my IWIWAL video was well received.

[permetaform]

You made the IWIWAL? =D Great vid! deft use of masks and great use of comedic shots!

As for high-action flashyness I'm fine with it as long as it has a purpose, and I *adore* vids that molest the beat, which is part of the reason why I love Mitternacht by Pwolf so much. It has a simple story (that follows more of an emotional/tension-based story arc than a conventional narrative) but it makes simply fantastic use of the beat, creating tension and then exploiting it. Euphoria by Koop is also a great one, and even though it was high in effects it still told a coherent story, guy!intro -> girl1!intro -> conflict -> girl2!intro -> big!conflict -> conclusion.

But yes! more recs! ::happy dance:: I'll download it once I get to my own computer. =)

Heh, this is so strange, where was this post linked from? I'm getting all these new people peeking in that I don't know, not that I mind. It's always good to find more vidders that's willing to discuss.

ooo, speaking of discussion, I've collected various vid meta here. Please please tell me if you know of any meta that doesn't appear there, it's a constantly updating work-in-progress. Most of the discussion linked to already are by live action vidders and it'll be great to have different perspectives there too.

[absolutedestiny.livejournal.com]

Well I must say it's like walking over a hill and discovering a whole other world on the other side.

I knew vidding was in all areas of fandom (mostly through fellow amv-ers who have been makng sci-fi videos since the 70s or something) but I didn't know there was so much coordinated and written about.

The differences are facinating, not only the differences between the techniques in the two forms but also the fandom and appreciation. I'd post all my thoughts but at this point I'm not sure I can totaly clarify them :)


I found this thread via friend gravenimaj who makes wonderful thought provoking videos which I foolishly failed to recommend earlier. I've seen much discussion of vividcon of late and read a whole bunch of con reviews (where I found my video mentioned). It's all very interesting to me as I do dabble in live action stuff as well (although animated works are more suited to my editing tastes, but that's for a later discussion :P).

I think one thing I've witnessed (which there is a painful lack of in the amv community) is actual detailed analysis of structural elements. Video criticism in the amv community has really become simply 1) "Did I like it" and 2) Was it techincally executed well. While both valid points to make it has changed the focus of amv making a great deal since the digital revolution to the point where basics such as narrative are lost due to anal micromanagement. It's rare to have a balance of the two and nobody EVER talks about narrative. Actual discussion of the creation process has really just become talk of technical with the really talented ones not really divulging their methodologies and hence limiting discourse. It's a shame really, so it's very refreshing to see it frequently discussed here.

I think it's likely that I'll be popping in from time to time and dabbling a little more in other vid fandoms. Things are always a little busy for me as I'm currently running animemusicvideos.org but I'm always happy to talk about video editing.

Some meta you might be interested in are the interviews with a few creators that are hosted on the org - they give an insight into their creative processes and... other things :)

There's other stuff too I'm sure but I'll return when I've had more of a think. There's lots more recs I could make... LOTS. I think of the amv.org top lists the Top Favourite list has a very good selection. The top 10% list is good too but a little more prone to clique fan bias I feel.

OK I'll shut up for now :)

[absolutedestiny.livejournal.com]

ack P.S. I noticed you quoted "The basic principles of matching audio and visuals are pretty simple... it's just that lots of people don't pay enough attention to their audio. Once you actually start really listening to the song it all falls into place."

I wrote that :) It made me very happy to see that referred to :D

I could do with expanding that page a little as it happens.

[permetaform]

::GAPES:: okay, adding you NOW. you don't have to add me back as I tend to ramble about everything and sundry and rec tons of slashy/yaoi fics randomly, but I've added you to my 'vids' filter if you're curious. =)

[permetaform]

The differences are facinating, not only the differences between the techniques in the two forms but also the fandom and appreciation.

heh, we have our own problems too; there's more likely to find groups of FArt vidders; ie. FunArt vidders who 'vid for fun only' and refuses to accept anything that resembles critique. And YET they demand critique-level praise.

See, I'm fine with vidders who vid just for fun, but don't expect me to give them oodles of praise that I don't think they deserve.

(and actually, that's the history behind the 'Elitist Bitch' icons you may see floating around; the VVC group tried to start up critical discussion and they got flamed and labeled as Pretentious Elitist Bitches. They turned around and used it as a rallying cry. This icon I'm using right now is also a derivative of the same kerfuffle)

[permetaform]

ooo, forgot to say that I'm going to take a peek at the interviews and the top favorites in a bit! =)