ConCrit of Live Till I Die, by marycrawford

[permetaform]

Explanation: I'd offered concrit feedback here. marycrawford's up next with Live Till I Die (HtLJ, lyrics here).

_{To clarify my Vocab (for us to be on the same page):
feel - gut-feeling. Whenever I talk about 'how I feel' relative to a vid's beat, I'm talking about instinctive gut reaction, NOT emotional reaction
narrative - levels of storytelling, story structure
technique - the nuts and bolts of expressing a story
beat - includes musical beats and beats from every instrument including the human voice}

Overall Impression: I can definately see your love of the character here; I have a so-so recollection of the series (watched most of it, but a couple years past, was in the fandom for a long time). I'd forgotten how adorable Iolaus was until you reminded me! I can tell your a new vidder from the vid, but I can also see where you have potential. Nice song choice; it has fun stuff to work with and lovely potential for irony.

Narrative: What I've gotten from your vid is an Iolaus character sketch around his characteristic of upbeatness.

Now, thing is, you mentioned you're new at vidding and your style is thus so new that I'll tell you this: some vids don't need narrative at all. Other vids are solely about narrative. Still *other* vids use narrative as an organizing idea (ie. narrative as an outline for clips), but can be taken narratively OR non-narratively. And at this point I sense that you can go any which way because your style is still flexible to accomodate whichever.

Note that they'd be different audiences for these different vid-types with almost no overlap between them.

What I'm unsure of, at this point, is what your vid aesthetic is. ie. what you *like* to see in a vid and thus is the ultimate goal of your own vids. Are you aiming for a vid of character celebration? Are you aiming for an analytical vid essay? Are you aiming for the visualization of a piece of music?

Go with your gut instinct in the answer to these questions, 'cause that's where you'll make your best vids. Follow your gut, follow *your* aesthetic, 'cause otherwise you'd never be happy making vids. And if you're not on some level happy with your vids, it's THAT much harder to make the vid have that spark of something that makes the vid loveable.

I'm personally of the narrative-as-organizer mode, mostly I have an idea I want to express and a song that'll carry the idea, so I usually use narrative to help me organize the clips *within* the song and the overall idea. Where I'm coming from with is that my inherent concept of communication is via storytelling, and my inherent belief about storytelling is that 90% of the story is subtext, or in other words not directly told. In practice, this means that I'm squishing an idea that'll usually take 50 minutes to tell into 5 minutes, and thus I'd *need* a clear narrative or it'll end up being jumbled incoherence.

HOWEVER, if
1) the means of communication that *you* want to use to communicate to your *audience* in a vid and
2) if your overall belief about the method of communication doesn't match mine, then any advice I might give about narrative can be thrown out the window, because my advice wouldn't be steering you towards the goal you're trying to reach.

In any case, I'm not sure I can be helpful unless I understand better what you're trying to do. I'd welcome discussion on this in the comments because at this point I don't know what I can say without hindering your final goal for your vids.

Technical: In your comment in the initial post you mentioned that:

_{My lone finished vid is Live Till I Die. (It's also on the Escapade 2005 set.) Critical feedback very very welcome. I'm working on a second vid, in another fandom, and there are so many things that I have to gain a feeling for - color palettes, effects, intercutting, fast cuts, all the shiny that you handle so well - without losing the thread of the vid.}

First of all, don't try to swallow *all* that in one go; take only a little bit more than you can handle, and then a little more. Don't think about the issues simultaneously, 'cause your head will explode; instead lay one level down, and then look for other considerations.

In other words, I think that the way you're approaching the various vidding elements are opposite of what they should be: the 'thread of the vid' is key. Everything else just makes the thread stronger. If you are *losing* the thread of the vid by trying to handle the other stuff, then you need to reassess what the thread of the vid is. *Is* the thread about color? Is it about effects? intercutting? etc? If it isn't, then worrying about it isn't key. It's only key when the thread of your vid needs to be bolstered by something else.

Second? I love that even in your first vid you are already intentionally or subconsciously matching several different elements in the music to different elements in the visuals. I'll point this out more as I go through it bit by bit.

0:08 - great movement with the horns here

0:22 - "take the town" ::gigglefit:: too cute

0:26 - screaming on "die", nice!

0:27 - LOVE this clip to the horns here!

0:30 - love the movement to the music here with them jerking back from the falling stick

0:42 - "the blues I lay low" - HEE! great match of mood and irony here with the change in facial expression

0:53 - nice matching of the clap to the horn blast

0:54 - good with the bouncing to the beat

0:58 - good with Iolaus flying and then the lowering of his shoulders as he takes the golden apple and the appearance of Aphrodite on the chime sound

1:00 - "riding high" nice match of the swirl of the sound to the rising swirl movement that Iolaus makes

1:06 - good sequence here with the hitting, rolling down hill, carried by herc sequence

1:14 - good that you changed with the mood here, you did that with both content and visuals (it's dark and doesn't move much and his face matches)

1:21 - the clip here feels good, I don't know if it's 'cause it's a bar scene and it inherently matches the feel of the music here

1:24 - great arm movement to the horn

1:36 - nice match shot

Ending sequence - some nice match shots, compositionally it flows very well and a great clip to end it with as it goes to white.

One thing that may or may not be a good piece of advice (again, dealing with what vidding style you're aiming for) is that you might want to be careful about literal clips. Your literal clips match well to the music and to the lyrics, but it might help more if they were part of some larger theme.

Ending thoughts: I can see this vid playing well at a convention because it's easy to take in during one sitting. I can also see people complaining about it being too simple narratively. Personally I felt your joy at making this vid and your love of the character and I totally didn't mind having this vid on repeat as I was typing this review up, you have some engaging movement matches to the sound and I LOVE that.

Granted, I also didn't have any new revelations about the character while watching this, but then I watched this show alot. Emotionally, I'm not sure that I could say a complete thread was carried through all of this, so that there's emotional arcs in the vid. But take these comments with a grain of salt 'cause this could be completely off from the effect you're shooting for.

What I admit that I was disappointed by was that you didn't make the vid more ironic, because Iolaus died so freaking *much* during the show, and I think you just showed one of the deaths? Then again, I noticed that you took advantage of various mood changes in the source and used them in various ways to amusing effect.

I'll emphasize again that at this point you'd probably want to figure out what vids you like best, and perhaps *why* you like them. That'll help you figure out both what you'd like to see in your own vids and your potential audience.

I'll apologize for rambling so much in this review, I hope this was helpful in some way. Any additional thoughts, comments, critique (*especially* about my post itself) are all welcome!

Comments

Comments, part two

[elynross.livejournal.com]

If you are *losing* the thread of the vid by trying to handle the other stuff, then you need to reassess what the thread of the vid is.

By this, are you saying you think she did lose the thread of the vid in LTID? You also say you aren't getting what the thread of the vid *is*, so I'm guessing so. But how much of that is a presumption of the kind of thread you're looking for, do you think? I'm not saying it is, I'm just wondering, based on my own experiences. I remember watching Lynn Cherney's SG vid to "In Your Eyes" when it debuted years ago, and totally not getting why so many vidders I really respect were *raving* about it. Granted, my own critical faculties for vids were less developed then, but I also realized after rewatching it later that I was thrown by it not really having a concrete narrative or theme beyond "this is a really cool show, with really interesting people and relationships". It was a great con vid, really blew people away, and it was more of an *experience*, something to just let wash over you, than it was a storytelling/narrative vid. Of course, merryish still insists there *is* a narrative, but I'm still not seeing it, although I've learned to appreciate the skill that went into the vid, and I enjoy it a lot.

One thing that may or may not be a good piece of advice (again, dealing with what vidding style you're aiming for) is that you might want to be careful about literal clips. Your literal clips match well to the music and to the lyrics, but it might help more if they were part of some larger theme.

I think this is great standard advice, but I'm having trouble seeing what prompted it in *this* vid. Yes, there are some literal clips, but I don't find any of them to be *solely* literal -- they also show another layer of correspondence, or great movement or context, which is one of the things that's key in using literalism well, something done to great effect in good comedy vids. Again, this seems a rather sophisticated move on the part of a technically first-time vidder.

I can see this vid playing well at a convention because it's easy to take in during one sitting.

Oh, it did. *g* It was chosen to open the second half of the Escapade show, and got the biggest response of any vid to that point, from my perception.

Emotionally, I'm not sure that I could say a complete thread was carried through all of this, so that there's emotional arcs in the vid.

I think there was a complete and ongoing thread of longing for something more, but being willing to enjoy life until that comes along, if it does. But I also don't think that every vid necessarily has (or needs) a single thread or arc beyond "Wow, this character is great! I love this character!" which can be done very effectively with great motion and timing. Killa&Lum's "History Repeating" and Seah&Margie's "Black Cat," come to mind here. Vids can have a variety of threads that hold them together, sometimes thematic, sometimes narrative, sometimes visual, etc.

What I admit that I was disappointed by was that you didn't make the vid more ironic, because Iolaus died so freaking *much* during the show, and I think you just showed one of the deaths?

And see, I think the vid is ultimately much more effective for not going the (to me) more obvious, literal, and easy route of showing a lot of deaths. We have Iolaus being tortured, we have him coming back to life in Herc's arms, we have a lot of intimations that his life is dangerous and hard, but the emphasis is on how he keeps grasping his joys, even if the one he wants the most (Hercules, in this instance) may elude him sometimes. I don't see that showing more obvious deaths of his would have come across ironically, but it certainly would have been a very different vid. I'm just afraid that such a choice would have left the viewer thinking that it was *overly* literal, since it's about living till you die, and boy, Iolaus sure does die a lot. (Good grief, cont. in part three)

Re: Comments, part two

[permetaform]

By this, are you saying you think she did lose the thread of the vid in LTID?

no, I was saying, from personal experience in doing "Why" and "The Fragile" and "Gravity", that if you (general "you") concentrate on doing too many things at once you'd start loosing contact with the reason for your vid, I tend to be detail-oriented in a vid and this is dangerous and I sometimes need to take a step back and look at the vid as a whole.

_{Emotionally, I'm not sure that I could say a complete thread was carried through all of this, so that there's emotional arcs in the vid.}

I think there was a complete and ongoing thread of longing for something more, but being willing to enjoy life until that comes along, if it does.

Exactly. but emotionally, *I* didn't feel (using the definition of 'feel' from this post) that there was any change, no thread-of-change. There was a thread of joy and longing, but emotionally, for *me*, there wasn't any.

I think this is great standard advice, but I'm having trouble seeing what prompted it in *this* vid. Yes, there are some literal clips, but I don't find any of them to be *solely* literal -- they also show another layer of correspondence, or great movement or context, which is one of the things that's key in using literalism well, something done to great effect in good comedy vids.

whoa. y'know, I think you just helped me figure out that I'm way more narrative-ly orientated than I always figured myself.

I'm just afraid that such a choice would have left the viewer thinking that it was *overly* literal, since it's about living till you die, and boy, Iolaus sure does die a lot.

::wry grin:: well, the entire vid was very literal and I kept expecting to see him die more (or at least die, once, *concetely*). It felt a bit like a tease.

Clarification Re: Comments, part two

[permetaform]

There was a thread of joy and longing, but emotionally, for *me*, there wasn't any.

::headdesk:: cut off the sentance. it's supposed to read, "for *me*, there wasn't any thread-of-change."

Re: Comments, part two

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Exactly. but emotionally, *I* didn't feel (using the definition of 'feel' from this post) that there was any change, no thread-of-change. There was a thread of joy and longing, but emotionally, for *me*, there wasn't any.

Hmm. I guess I don't agree with the implication that there should always be emotional change over the course of a vid. But it's perfectly valid to just say, "this just didn't click for me," of course, because that emotional thing is so very subjective -- I can't watch that vid without smiling all the way through it, and feeling uplifted at the end of it, but there are other vids that have gotten tremendous emotional response from many people I respect that leave me cold.

y'know, I think you just helped me figure out that I'm way more narrative-ly orientated than I always figured myself.

I admit in reading your comments, it comes across that you privilege narrative over anything else, to the point that a lack of clear narrative throws you completely. *g*

well, the entire vid was very literal and I kept expecting to see him die more

Huh. I think the vid was very directly illustrating the lyrics, but only occasionally and truly literal, such that what the lyrics say is precisely and only what you see in the clips. Like, fire when the lyrics say fire, in a way that doesn't correspond to anything else in the vid. For me, literalism is simply one more tool in the vidding box, that can easily be used badly or ineffectively, in a way I don't think was done here.

Re: Comments, part two

[permetaform]

I guess I don't agree with the implication that there should always be emotional change over the course of a vid.

Me too; but that's what I like in a vid, and I honestly don't know how to give her advice that wouldn't impose a structure that isn't *her* aim. And I don't know how to make the vid any more uplifting than it already is.

it comes across that you privilege narrative over anything else, to the point that a lack of clear narrative throws you completely. *g*

aheh, well, I was sorta trained by sisabet and lum. I've always organized clips by intent into a larger whole. I'm not quite sure what to advise a vid that's purely there to create mood, because it's difficult for me to create mood unless it's in a narrative context.

I'm not sure that there's any better advice for creating mood (out of narrative context) other than movement and choosing better clips. I think she did a great job with movement and I can't help her choose clips because I don't know the source in clip-by-clip depth.

Re: Comments, part two

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Me too; but that's what I like in a vid, and I honestly don't know how to give her advice that wouldn't impose a structure that isn't *her* aim.

Okay, see, this? *This* is the kind of stuff that would have intrigued me and clarified your criticism. To say more directly: What the vids I really like have in common is an ability to move me emotionally (perhaps saying more specifically how), and LTID just didn't move me that way, maybe because I look for narrative in vids, and this seemed to be a non-narrative vid. As you said yourself, you kind of talked around some of what you were trying to say, and in a way, you avoided giving what your actual emotional reactions to the vid *were*, it seems like.

I think she did a great job with movement and I can't help her choose clips because I don't know the source in clip-by-clip depth.

See, I have a really lousy clip memory, even for shows I've seen repeatedly, like HL, or Buffy or Angel. What I do is just say to Lum or Killa, "this isn't working. You need something that does this, or is more of a close-up, or something. Fix it," and if they see I have a point, they go off and try and find something that works. Poor Killa had to do that just yesterday, going literally through every single bit of Duncan&Tessa footage. I felt like such a bully. *g* Okay, she didn't go through all of it yesterday, but by the time she found clips that worked for both of us, she'd done so. *g*

I'm really still much less secure about my vid-betaing skills than my writing ones. With writing, I can both see the outline of where a story is trying/should go, and make specific, concrete suggestions as to how to achieve that. With vidding, I have to kind of describe around it and trust in my vidders to achieve it. Fortunately, they're brilliant. *g*

Re: Comments, part two

[permetaform]

ahh. see, I tend to try to speak carefully about subjects in general. For me, there's no use in speaking unless I know it won't cause harm. It's differing communication styles.

you avoided giving what your actual emotional reactions to the vid *were*, it seems like.

...well, yes.

::is confused::

um, communication breakdown again. Clarify?

Re: Comments, part two

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Hrm. You gave some timed specifics, and said I like this, this is good, so it wasn't like there wasn't any emotional reaction, but I don't remember at any point that you really gave your personal reaction to the vid overall, why it wasn't working for you -- and I really think it wasn't, however much you can appreciate the technical aspects -- and that's okay.

Again, keep in mind that I had a misconception as to the aim of the exercise, given the talk about wanting to increase vid discussion overall that's been floating around.

What you seemed to do -- probably to avoid causing harm, as you say -- was back away into non-specifics, speaking generally about vidding in ways that implied a certain reaction to the vid, without actually saying, "And this applies to this particular vid in this way."

I do understand not wanting to cause harm, but when you're really trying to give constructive criticism in a way that will help someone improve, it's a risk you have to take. You have to be pretty specific about what worked and what didn't, and why, which can be done without intending to hurt anyone. Whether they're hurt or not anyway you ultimately have very little control over, I find. Devolving into generalities makes it harder to really communicate about the text in question, I think. But it is okay to say up front, "I don't really think I'm the audience for this vid, so my help may be limited."

Re: Comments, part two

[permetaform]

But it is okay to say up front, "I don't really think I'm the audience for this vid, so my help may be limited."

::nods:: I'll definately keep that in mind.

You have to be pretty specific about what worked and what didn't, and why, which can be done without intending to hurt anyone. Whether they're hurt or not anyway you ultimately have very little control over, I find.

Difference of philosophy in communicating. To my view, concrit always hurts on some level, changing always hurts on some level; what I'm trying to do is present my thoughts in a way that shows where I'm coming from, what possibilities there are, and to show that I'm coming from a logical place of discussion and to clearly clearly show that I'm sympathetic to their end-goal.

Intending to hurt, yes one has very little control over that, and it'll happen anyways in concrit I think. Being *effective* however, is something I can control. And in terms of giving critique, this has been what worked best for me as a style of rhetoric; I haven't had much long-term success with any other style.

In any case, my emotions tend to be all over the place on any matter in general, it's hard for me to pinpoint sometimes what I'm feeling unless it's happyness, joy, or squee. You'd notice that I pinned 'feel' very carefully in the post, and only address emotional arcs on the level of narrative.