ConCrit of Live Till I Die, by marycrawford

[permetaform]

Explanation: I'd offered concrit feedback here. marycrawford's up next with Live Till I Die (HtLJ, lyrics here).

_{To clarify my Vocab (for us to be on the same page):
feel - gut-feeling. Whenever I talk about 'how I feel' relative to a vid's beat, I'm talking about instinctive gut reaction, NOT emotional reaction
narrative - levels of storytelling, story structure
technique - the nuts and bolts of expressing a story
beat - includes musical beats and beats from every instrument including the human voice}

Overall Impression: I can definately see your love of the character here; I have a so-so recollection of the series (watched most of it, but a couple years past, was in the fandom for a long time). I'd forgotten how adorable Iolaus was until you reminded me! I can tell your a new vidder from the vid, but I can also see where you have potential. Nice song choice; it has fun stuff to work with and lovely potential for irony.

Narrative: What I've gotten from your vid is an Iolaus character sketch around his characteristic of upbeatness.

Now, thing is, you mentioned you're new at vidding and your style is thus so new that I'll tell you this: some vids don't need narrative at all. Other vids are solely about narrative. Still *other* vids use narrative as an organizing idea (ie. narrative as an outline for clips), but can be taken narratively OR non-narratively. And at this point I sense that you can go any which way because your style is still flexible to accomodate whichever.

Note that they'd be different audiences for these different vid-types with almost no overlap between them.

What I'm unsure of, at this point, is what your vid aesthetic is. ie. what you *like* to see in a vid and thus is the ultimate goal of your own vids. Are you aiming for a vid of character celebration? Are you aiming for an analytical vid essay? Are you aiming for the visualization of a piece of music?

Go with your gut instinct in the answer to these questions, 'cause that's where you'll make your best vids. Follow your gut, follow *your* aesthetic, 'cause otherwise you'd never be happy making vids. And if you're not on some level happy with your vids, it's THAT much harder to make the vid have that spark of something that makes the vid loveable.

I'm personally of the narrative-as-organizer mode, mostly I have an idea I want to express and a song that'll carry the idea, so I usually use narrative to help me organize the clips *within* the song and the overall idea. Where I'm coming from with is that my inherent concept of communication is via storytelling, and my inherent belief about storytelling is that 90% of the story is subtext, or in other words not directly told. In practice, this means that I'm squishing an idea that'll usually take 50 minutes to tell into 5 minutes, and thus I'd *need* a clear narrative or it'll end up being jumbled incoherence.

HOWEVER, if
1) the means of communication that *you* want to use to communicate to your *audience* in a vid and
2) if your overall belief about the method of communication doesn't match mine, then any advice I might give about narrative can be thrown out the window, because my advice wouldn't be steering you towards the goal you're trying to reach.

In any case, I'm not sure I can be helpful unless I understand better what you're trying to do. I'd welcome discussion on this in the comments because at this point I don't know what I can say without hindering your final goal for your vids.

Technical: In your comment in the initial post you mentioned that:

_{My lone finished vid is Live Till I Die. (It's also on the Escapade 2005 set.) Critical feedback very very welcome. I'm working on a second vid, in another fandom, and there are so many things that I have to gain a feeling for - color palettes, effects, intercutting, fast cuts, all the shiny that you handle so well - without losing the thread of the vid.}

First of all, don't try to swallow *all* that in one go; take only a little bit more than you can handle, and then a little more. Don't think about the issues simultaneously, 'cause your head will explode; instead lay one level down, and then look for other considerations.

In other words, I think that the way you're approaching the various vidding elements are opposite of what they should be: the 'thread of the vid' is key. Everything else just makes the thread stronger. If you are *losing* the thread of the vid by trying to handle the other stuff, then you need to reassess what the thread of the vid is. *Is* the thread about color? Is it about effects? intercutting? etc? If it isn't, then worrying about it isn't key. It's only key when the thread of your vid needs to be bolstered by something else.

Second? I love that even in your first vid you are already intentionally or subconsciously matching several different elements in the music to different elements in the visuals. I'll point this out more as I go through it bit by bit.

0:08 - great movement with the horns here

0:22 - "take the town" ::gigglefit:: too cute

0:26 - screaming on "die", nice!

0:27 - LOVE this clip to the horns here!

0:30 - love the movement to the music here with them jerking back from the falling stick

0:42 - "the blues I lay low" - HEE! great match of mood and irony here with the change in facial expression

0:53 - nice matching of the clap to the horn blast

0:54 - good with the bouncing to the beat

0:58 - good with Iolaus flying and then the lowering of his shoulders as he takes the golden apple and the appearance of Aphrodite on the chime sound

1:00 - "riding high" nice match of the swirl of the sound to the rising swirl movement that Iolaus makes

1:06 - good sequence here with the hitting, rolling down hill, carried by herc sequence

1:14 - good that you changed with the mood here, you did that with both content and visuals (it's dark and doesn't move much and his face matches)

1:21 - the clip here feels good, I don't know if it's 'cause it's a bar scene and it inherently matches the feel of the music here

1:24 - great arm movement to the horn

1:36 - nice match shot

Ending sequence - some nice match shots, compositionally it flows very well and a great clip to end it with as it goes to white.

One thing that may or may not be a good piece of advice (again, dealing with what vidding style you're aiming for) is that you might want to be careful about literal clips. Your literal clips match well to the music and to the lyrics, but it might help more if they were part of some larger theme.

Ending thoughts: I can see this vid playing well at a convention because it's easy to take in during one sitting. I can also see people complaining about it being too simple narratively. Personally I felt your joy at making this vid and your love of the character and I totally didn't mind having this vid on repeat as I was typing this review up, you have some engaging movement matches to the sound and I LOVE that.

Granted, I also didn't have any new revelations about the character while watching this, but then I watched this show alot. Emotionally, I'm not sure that I could say a complete thread was carried through all of this, so that there's emotional arcs in the vid. But take these comments with a grain of salt 'cause this could be completely off from the effect you're shooting for.

What I admit that I was disappointed by was that you didn't make the vid more ironic, because Iolaus died so freaking *much* during the show, and I think you just showed one of the deaths? Then again, I noticed that you took advantage of various mood changes in the source and used them in various ways to amusing effect.

I'll emphasize again that at this point you'd probably want to figure out what vids you like best, and perhaps *why* you like them. That'll help you figure out both what you'd like to see in your own vids and your potential audience.

I'll apologize for rambling so much in this review, I hope this was helpful in some way. Any additional thoughts, comments, critique (*especially* about my post itself) are all welcome!

Comments

[marycrawford.livejournal.com]

:beams: Thank you so much! You've given me a lot to think about, and I can't thank you enough for the time and thought you put into this. Also, I happen to like rambly, because that's how my brain works, so now I feel empowered to ramble back at you and skip back and forth between comments and things. :-)

What I'm unsure of, at this point, is what your vid aesthetic is. ie. what you *like* to see in a vid and thus is the ultimate goal of your own vids. Are you aiming for a vid of character celebration? Are you aiming for an analytical vid essay? Are you aiming for the visualization of a piece of music?

Good question. I just wish I had a better answer - but I think it might help me to narrow your question down to just this vid, and try to put into words what I wanted here, because otherwise thinking about what my vid aesthetic is makes me freeze. I know which vids I love - vids by Seah & Margie, Killa, Luminosity - and I am still trying to work out what makes them tick.

I want to make narrative vids, and I'd love to do a meta vid along the line of Carol S's Stargate vids (I'm thinking of 'Johnny, Are You Queer' in particular), but it all depends on the song, for me - right now, the song comes first, carrying ideas and mood and imagery, and I follow it along until I know what kind of vid it wants to be. (I feel that this sounds incredibly pretentious, but I'm going to try and ignore that feeling, because I have a hard enough time talking about vids as it is. *g*)

For LTID, 'character celebration'. I think you're right that it's a simple vid, without a strong narrative line or a completely new perspective - it's basically my 'this is why I love Iolaus' vid, coupled with the idea that Iolaus does, indeed, die a lot, and his response is to make every breath count. It was not really intended as a story vid, more a character portrait.

For this vid, my role model was Seah & Margie's 'Black Cat' (http://www.trickster.org/vids/), with its affectionate portrayal of Jim (and Blair) and all the fabulous movement to the music. And that's selling the vid short, really, but motion matched to musical elements is something I started noticing with 'Black Cat', rewatching it and trying to pinpoint what made me go 'OMG wheeeeeeee' about it. So you can imagine that I'm very pleased that you noticed my attempts at matching motion to music in LTID, and trying to change the mood along with the music, because that was definitely intentional and still makes me happy. :-)

What I admit that I was disappointed by was that you make the song more ironic, because Iolaus died so freaking *much* during the show, and I think you just showed one of the deaths?

I think you mean 'didn't make the song more ironic'? Or am I misunderstanding you?

I hope not, because if you did mean that, I get where you're coming from, and I'm very interested to hear that. Initially I did want to include every actual death scene, and I had the Amazon death scene clips already laid. But I couldn't get that scene to work visually, and I realized I didn't have source for the most dramatic death. At the same time I began to feel that actually showing him dying on every other 'till I die' was too literal, that it might work better to take one of those scenes (the one where he wakes up in Hades, in Herc's arms) and let that stand for the others. I figured that fans would get the wink and nod behind the lyrics all the same, but maybe I was being optimistic there, and instead it made the vid more diffuse.

the 'thread of the vid' is key.

Yes. Yesyesyes. I agree so much. And you're reassuring me that it's not about understanding everything Premiere can do all at once - sometimes I forget that. *g* I have a vid or two in mind that will need (I think) certain effects to make the thread of the vid stronger, but I'll try not to get too sidetracked thinking about effects instead of the vid and what I want to say with it.

(tbc)

part 2 (just over the limit)

[marycrawford.livejournal.com]

Thanks again! Of your vids, I think the only one I know the fandom for is the POTC one. I'll gladly write feedback for it (and try not to worry too much about how little I know), unless you have another you particularly want critted? If so, let me know and I'll do my best. Um. Except possibly for the Ring one, because it was awesome and scared me so much that I don't think I could watch it again. :hides under the bed:

Comments, part one

[elynross.livejournal.com]

I found this a fascinating exercise to observe, with you evaluating the vid, then reading Mary's reaction, then yours to her.

One thing that I wonder is how much you focused on Mary *telling* you she was a first-time vidder, and keeping that in mind as you watched. I say this, because I know that I would never have pegged it as a vid from a first-time vidder, had I not known, because it shows a very sophisticated grasp of movement, both within clips and from clip to clip, as well as timing, and the effective use of literal clips without overusing them. Given the quality of first-time vids out there, this one reflects a grasp of possibilities that most don't, to my mind.

But for you, and the tone of your review, that seems to be a primary consideration in approaching the vid. More of your commentary seems to focus on what Mary ought to do, in vidding in general, than on what *this vid does*. That's not a bad thing, certainly, probably helpful, in fact, but it was unexpected, as I approached this as a review of Mary's vid, not a tutorial for the newbie vidder, I guess.

I do have the advantage of having talked with Mary a lot, and I know how much she's studied vidding before even starting out, and how she sought out mentoring and really works with it.

One of the things that struck me is your emphasis on narrative, which seemed odd for a vid review of a vid that's openly and intentionally non-narrative -- a character study, and a comic one, at that. I know when I first started really understanding the dimensions and layers possible in vidding, years ago, I had to consciously work not to try too hard to seek out (and possibly over-impose) a narrative structure on a vid, because it could cloud what the vid itself was actually trying to do.

I found your discussion of contemplating one's style/aesthetic to be alien to me. The style or aesthetic is what comes from the vid or writing, for me. You recognize a particular vidder/writer's style as you watch their vids, but it's not often, in my experience, that said creator sits down and contemplates how to "create" their style in a given vid, because it's creating it that *makes* it their style. It seems like you might believe that any given vidder should (or does) stick to a particular "style," including whether their vids are narrative, or not, intentionally -- and maybe some do. But for the vidders I've worked with (Killa, Lum, Here's Luck, Sisabet, Seah&Margie) it depends on the fandom, the song, what they're trying to do with any given vid. In each case, some of their vids are narrative, some are not.

I do think different vidders have different strengths and inclinations, but I question the idea that a vidder should sit down and make a single choice about how they approach *vidding itself*, outside of the specific vid they're working on.

What I'm unsure of, at this point, is what your vid aesthetic is. ie. what you *like* to see in a vid and thus is the ultimate goal of your own vids.

My reaction to this is two-fold, that it's hard to determine an overall aesthetic from a single vid, and that I'm not sure how this is relevant to the review of an individual vid. I also wonder if you're trying to impose a narrative on a non-narrative vid, and therefore not seeing what it is as clearly as you could.

Maybe it's a matter of not understanding what you were attempting with these reviews; as I said, this seems less like a review of a completed vid, presented for other viewers, and more like an individual tutorial about vidding, in general, for some purpose that isn't quite clear to me, in context of it being a review. (cont. in part two)

Comments, part two

[elynross.livejournal.com]

If you are *losing* the thread of the vid by trying to handle the other stuff, then you need to reassess what the thread of the vid is.

By this, are you saying you think she did lose the thread of the vid in LTID? You also say you aren't getting what the thread of the vid *is*, so I'm guessing so. But how much of that is a presumption of the kind of thread you're looking for, do you think? I'm not saying it is, I'm just wondering, based on my own experiences. I remember watching Lynn Cherney's SG vid to "In Your Eyes" when it debuted years ago, and totally not getting why so many vidders I really respect were *raving* about it. Granted, my own critical faculties for vids were less developed then, but I also realized after rewatching it later that I was thrown by it not really having a concrete narrative or theme beyond "this is a really cool show, with really interesting people and relationships". It was a great con vid, really blew people away, and it was more of an *experience*, something to just let wash over you, than it was a storytelling/narrative vid. Of course, merryish still insists there *is* a narrative, but I'm still not seeing it, although I've learned to appreciate the skill that went into the vid, and I enjoy it a lot.

One thing that may or may not be a good piece of advice (again, dealing with what vidding style you're aiming for) is that you might want to be careful about literal clips. Your literal clips match well to the music and to the lyrics, but it might help more if they were part of some larger theme.

I think this is great standard advice, but I'm having trouble seeing what prompted it in *this* vid. Yes, there are some literal clips, but I don't find any of them to be *solely* literal -- they also show another layer of correspondence, or great movement or context, which is one of the things that's key in using literalism well, something done to great effect in good comedy vids. Again, this seems a rather sophisticated move on the part of a technically first-time vidder.

I can see this vid playing well at a convention because it's easy to take in during one sitting.

Oh, it did. *g* It was chosen to open the second half of the Escapade show, and got the biggest response of any vid to that point, from my perception.

Emotionally, I'm not sure that I could say a complete thread was carried through all of this, so that there's emotional arcs in the vid.

I think there was a complete and ongoing thread of longing for something more, but being willing to enjoy life until that comes along, if it does. But I also don't think that every vid necessarily has (or needs) a single thread or arc beyond "Wow, this character is great! I love this character!" which can be done very effectively with great motion and timing. Killa&Lum's "History Repeating" and Seah&Margie's "Black Cat," come to mind here. Vids can have a variety of threads that hold them together, sometimes thematic, sometimes narrative, sometimes visual, etc.

What I admit that I was disappointed by was that you didn't make the vid more ironic, because Iolaus died so freaking *much* during the show, and I think you just showed one of the deaths?

And see, I think the vid is ultimately much more effective for not going the (to me) more obvious, literal, and easy route of showing a lot of deaths. We have Iolaus being tortured, we have him coming back to life in Herc's arms, we have a lot of intimations that his life is dangerous and hard, but the emphasis is on how he keeps grasping his joys, even if the one he wants the most (Hercules, in this instance) may elude him sometimes. I don't see that showing more obvious deaths of his would have come across ironically, but it certainly would have been a very different vid. I'm just afraid that such a choice would have left the viewer thinking that it was *overly* literal, since it's about living till you die, and boy, Iolaus sure does die a lot. (Good grief, cont. in part three)

comments, part three

[elynross.livejournal.com]

I'll emphasize again that at this point you'd probably want to figure out what vids you like best, and perhaps *why* you like them. That'll help you figure out both what you'd like to see in your own vids and your potential audience.

This conclusion really makes me think that this is less what I think of as a review, an evaluation of the vid itself, and more a tutorial for Mary alone. If your intent is to talk solely with the individual vidder, rather than open up conversation *about the vid*, that works great -- but I was rather disappointed that there wasn't more critical evaluation of the vid itself. Although I seem to have found quite a lot to say anyway. *g*

That said, you're one of the few of us actually putting your money where your mouth is in talking about specific vids, and I surely laud that. As a reader of your LJ, though, I'd like to see you more address the wider audience beyond the vidder herself.

Um. That's all. *cough* Sorry for the mouthiness. I... really like this vid. *g*

[elynross.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how to address a wider audience beyond the vidder, or rather: I don't know how to give concrit analysis in a way other that how I already am doing, could you elaborate on this? or give examples so that I could improve perhaps?

Oh, I don't think it's a matter of improving, necessarily! Just addressing a different audience. It's the difference, maybe, between constructive criticism and criticism/review. The former is for the vidder, the latter is for everyone else. You send feedback to an author; you talk about a story with your friends, what you liked, what you didn't, without (necessarily) regard for specifically what you'd change/how you'd change it.

And again, you're focusing on helpfulness; as a reader/reviewer, I focus on discussion -- although frankly, it's helpful for people to talk about texts, whether writing or vidding, both because it can clarify things for other creators, educate your audience as to the types of things you might look for, and intrigue people into wanting to read/view the text.

Really, this is making me want to do more reviews, if I can find the mental energy and make a choice as to what to review. *g* I'll think on it.

If I were reviewing Mary's vid for a larger audience, I'd have described particularly choices more fully, and then talked about why I picked those, what I liked or didn't like, or why. I'd talk about how the vid made me feel, what drew me, what put me off, what choices puzzled me, etc. Think of it in terms of a movie or book review, maybe? In addressing the wider audience, you're attempting to provoke discussion, have people join in as to where they agree or disagree -- basically, it's just one-half of a conversation, and you're hoping to inspire people to the other half.

Mind you, the times I did this on vidder, it tended to sink like a rock, with no response at all. Someone has to want to talk back. *g*