ConCrit of Live Till I Die, by marycrawford

[permetaform]

Explanation: I'd offered concrit feedback here. marycrawford's up next with Live Till I Die (HtLJ, lyrics here).

_{To clarify my Vocab (for us to be on the same page):
feel - gut-feeling. Whenever I talk about 'how I feel' relative to a vid's beat, I'm talking about instinctive gut reaction, NOT emotional reaction
narrative - levels of storytelling, story structure
technique - the nuts and bolts of expressing a story
beat - includes musical beats and beats from every instrument including the human voice}

Overall Impression: I can definately see your love of the character here; I have a so-so recollection of the series (watched most of it, but a couple years past, was in the fandom for a long time). I'd forgotten how adorable Iolaus was until you reminded me! I can tell your a new vidder from the vid, but I can also see where you have potential. Nice song choice; it has fun stuff to work with and lovely potential for irony.

Narrative: What I've gotten from your vid is an Iolaus character sketch around his characteristic of upbeatness.

Now, thing is, you mentioned you're new at vidding and your style is thus so new that I'll tell you this: some vids don't need narrative at all. Other vids are solely about narrative. Still *other* vids use narrative as an organizing idea (ie. narrative as an outline for clips), but can be taken narratively OR non-narratively. And at this point I sense that you can go any which way because your style is still flexible to accomodate whichever.

Note that they'd be different audiences for these different vid-types with almost no overlap between them.

What I'm unsure of, at this point, is what your vid aesthetic is. ie. what you *like* to see in a vid and thus is the ultimate goal of your own vids. Are you aiming for a vid of character celebration? Are you aiming for an analytical vid essay? Are you aiming for the visualization of a piece of music?

Go with your gut instinct in the answer to these questions, 'cause that's where you'll make your best vids. Follow your gut, follow *your* aesthetic, 'cause otherwise you'd never be happy making vids. And if you're not on some level happy with your vids, it's THAT much harder to make the vid have that spark of something that makes the vid loveable.

I'm personally of the narrative-as-organizer mode, mostly I have an idea I want to express and a song that'll carry the idea, so I usually use narrative to help me organize the clips *within* the song and the overall idea. Where I'm coming from with is that my inherent concept of communication is via storytelling, and my inherent belief about storytelling is that 90% of the story is subtext, or in other words not directly told. In practice, this means that I'm squishing an idea that'll usually take 50 minutes to tell into 5 minutes, and thus I'd *need* a clear narrative or it'll end up being jumbled incoherence.

HOWEVER, if
1) the means of communication that *you* want to use to communicate to your *audience* in a vid and
2) if your overall belief about the method of communication doesn't match mine, then any advice I might give about narrative can be thrown out the window, because my advice wouldn't be steering you towards the goal you're trying to reach.

In any case, I'm not sure I can be helpful unless I understand better what you're trying to do. I'd welcome discussion on this in the comments because at this point I don't know what I can say without hindering your final goal for your vids.

Technical: In your comment in the initial post you mentioned that:

_{My lone finished vid is Live Till I Die. (It's also on the Escapade 2005 set.) Critical feedback very very welcome. I'm working on a second vid, in another fandom, and there are so many things that I have to gain a feeling for - color palettes, effects, intercutting, fast cuts, all the shiny that you handle so well - without losing the thread of the vid.}

First of all, don't try to swallow *all* that in one go; take only a little bit more than you can handle, and then a little more. Don't think about the issues simultaneously, 'cause your head will explode; instead lay one level down, and then look for other considerations.

In other words, I think that the way you're approaching the various vidding elements are opposite of what they should be: the 'thread of the vid' is key. Everything else just makes the thread stronger. If you are *losing* the thread of the vid by trying to handle the other stuff, then you need to reassess what the thread of the vid is. *Is* the thread about color? Is it about effects? intercutting? etc? If it isn't, then worrying about it isn't key. It's only key when the thread of your vid needs to be bolstered by something else.

Second? I love that even in your first vid you are already intentionally or subconsciously matching several different elements in the music to different elements in the visuals. I'll point this out more as I go through it bit by bit.

0:08 - great movement with the horns here

0:22 - "take the town" ::gigglefit:: too cute

0:26 - screaming on "die", nice!

0:27 - LOVE this clip to the horns here!

0:30 - love the movement to the music here with them jerking back from the falling stick

0:42 - "the blues I lay low" - HEE! great match of mood and irony here with the change in facial expression

0:53 - nice matching of the clap to the horn blast

0:54 - good with the bouncing to the beat

0:58 - good with Iolaus flying and then the lowering of his shoulders as he takes the golden apple and the appearance of Aphrodite on the chime sound

1:00 - "riding high" nice match of the swirl of the sound to the rising swirl movement that Iolaus makes

1:06 - good sequence here with the hitting, rolling down hill, carried by herc sequence

1:14 - good that you changed with the mood here, you did that with both content and visuals (it's dark and doesn't move much and his face matches)

1:21 - the clip here feels good, I don't know if it's 'cause it's a bar scene and it inherently matches the feel of the music here

1:24 - great arm movement to the horn

1:36 - nice match shot

Ending sequence - some nice match shots, compositionally it flows very well and a great clip to end it with as it goes to white.

One thing that may or may not be a good piece of advice (again, dealing with what vidding style you're aiming for) is that you might want to be careful about literal clips. Your literal clips match well to the music and to the lyrics, but it might help more if they were part of some larger theme.

Ending thoughts: I can see this vid playing well at a convention because it's easy to take in during one sitting. I can also see people complaining about it being too simple narratively. Personally I felt your joy at making this vid and your love of the character and I totally didn't mind having this vid on repeat as I was typing this review up, you have some engaging movement matches to the sound and I LOVE that.

Granted, I also didn't have any new revelations about the character while watching this, but then I watched this show alot. Emotionally, I'm not sure that I could say a complete thread was carried through all of this, so that there's emotional arcs in the vid. But take these comments with a grain of salt 'cause this could be completely off from the effect you're shooting for.

What I admit that I was disappointed by was that you didn't make the vid more ironic, because Iolaus died so freaking *much* during the show, and I think you just showed one of the deaths? Then again, I noticed that you took advantage of various mood changes in the source and used them in various ways to amusing effect.

I'll emphasize again that at this point you'd probably want to figure out what vids you like best, and perhaps *why* you like them. That'll help you figure out both what you'd like to see in your own vids and your potential audience.

I'll apologize for rambling so much in this review, I hope this was helpful in some way. Any additional thoughts, comments, critique (*especially* about my post itself) are all welcome!

Comments

[marycrawford.livejournal.com]

:beams: Thank you so much! You've given me a lot to think about, and I can't thank you enough for the time and thought you put into this. Also, I happen to like rambly, because that's how my brain works, so now I feel empowered to ramble back at you and skip back and forth between comments and things. :-)

What I'm unsure of, at this point, is what your vid aesthetic is. ie. what you *like* to see in a vid and thus is the ultimate goal of your own vids. Are you aiming for a vid of character celebration? Are you aiming for an analytical vid essay? Are you aiming for the visualization of a piece of music?

Good question. I just wish I had a better answer - but I think it might help me to narrow your question down to just this vid, and try to put into words what I wanted here, because otherwise thinking about what my vid aesthetic is makes me freeze. I know which vids I love - vids by Seah & Margie, Killa, Luminosity - and I am still trying to work out what makes them tick.

I want to make narrative vids, and I'd love to do a meta vid along the line of Carol S's Stargate vids (I'm thinking of 'Johnny, Are You Queer' in particular), but it all depends on the song, for me - right now, the song comes first, carrying ideas and mood and imagery, and I follow it along until I know what kind of vid it wants to be. (I feel that this sounds incredibly pretentious, but I'm going to try and ignore that feeling, because I have a hard enough time talking about vids as it is. *g*)

For LTID, 'character celebration'. I think you're right that it's a simple vid, without a strong narrative line or a completely new perspective - it's basically my 'this is why I love Iolaus' vid, coupled with the idea that Iolaus does, indeed, die a lot, and his response is to make every breath count. It was not really intended as a story vid, more a character portrait.

For this vid, my role model was Seah & Margie's 'Black Cat' (http://www.trickster.org/vids/), with its affectionate portrayal of Jim (and Blair) and all the fabulous movement to the music. And that's selling the vid short, really, but motion matched to musical elements is something I started noticing with 'Black Cat', rewatching it and trying to pinpoint what made me go 'OMG wheeeeeeee' about it. So you can imagine that I'm very pleased that you noticed my attempts at matching motion to music in LTID, and trying to change the mood along with the music, because that was definitely intentional and still makes me happy. :-)

What I admit that I was disappointed by was that you make the song more ironic, because Iolaus died so freaking *much* during the show, and I think you just showed one of the deaths?

I think you mean 'didn't make the song more ironic'? Or am I misunderstanding you?

I hope not, because if you did mean that, I get where you're coming from, and I'm very interested to hear that. Initially I did want to include every actual death scene, and I had the Amazon death scene clips already laid. But I couldn't get that scene to work visually, and I realized I didn't have source for the most dramatic death. At the same time I began to feel that actually showing him dying on every other 'till I die' was too literal, that it might work better to take one of those scenes (the one where he wakes up in Hades, in Herc's arms) and let that stand for the others. I figured that fans would get the wink and nod behind the lyrics all the same, but maybe I was being optimistic there, and instead it made the vid more diffuse.

the 'thread of the vid' is key.

Yes. Yesyesyes. I agree so much. And you're reassuring me that it's not about understanding everything Premiere can do all at once - sometimes I forget that. *g* I have a vid or two in mind that will need (I think) certain effects to make the thread of the vid stronger, but I'll try not to get too sidetracked thinking about effects instead of the vid and what I want to say with it.

(tbc)

part 2 (just over the limit)

[marycrawford.livejournal.com]

Thanks again! Of your vids, I think the only one I know the fandom for is the POTC one. I'll gladly write feedback for it (and try not to worry too much about how little I know), unless you have another you particularly want critted? If so, let me know and I'll do my best. Um. Except possibly for the Ring one, because it was awesome and scared me so much that I don't think I could watch it again. :hides under the bed:

[permetaform]

vids by Seah & Margie, Killa, Luminosity - and I am still trying to work out what makes them tick.

The thing about Seah and Margie's vids is that they have brilliant control of rising tension, a bit like catching a fish it's a pull and let-go with a very firm tug at the end. Lum's vids just have this huuuuge narrative. I've described it before like an ocean, it's clean and sharp at first glance and then you get to all these undercurrents, there's so much story and analysis packed into each of her vids. ...I still haven't quite figured out what I think of Killa's vids though, I should go watch them more I think. ::wry grin::

I want to make narrative vids, and I'd love to do a meta vid along the line of Carol S's Stargate vids (I'm thinking of 'Johnny, Are You Queer' in particular), but it all depends on the song, for me - right now, the song comes first, carrying ideas and mood and imagery, and I follow it along until I know what kind of vid it wants to be.

Actually, this is a very good way of describing what the process could be. Try to look for a song with different mood qualities or perhaps interesting lyrics, both will force you to make decisions in clip choice that something like an instrumental or a repetitive song completely leaves wide open.

Incidentally, I think this is why vidding to a pop song is *incredibly* hard, because they have a repetitive structure. But most beginners don't realize this I think and the good aspect of most pop songs is that they have an easy beat to follow so at least there's a good chance of beat-whoring, if only accidentally.

I hope not, because if you did mean that, I get where you're coming from, and I'm very interested to hear that. Initially I did want to include every actual death scene, and I had the Amazon death scene clips already laid. But I couldn't get that scene to work visually, and I realized I didn't have source for the most dramatic death. At the same time I began to feel that actually showing him dying on every other 'till I die' was too literal, that it might work better to take one of those scenes (the one where he wakes up in Hades, in Herc's arms) and let that stand for the others.

ahhh, that makes sense. But actually what I was thinking of is that you reinterpret the lyrics "till I die" a little differently each time and on one of the repetitions show all the deaths at once, or perhaps the most dramatic death...the clip you showed confused me a little when I first saw it because Iolaus was waking up.

the vid and what I want to say with it

YES. Summarize (or find someone to summarize) your vid idea into one sentance, and then play on the idea of that sentance for the entirety of your vid.

Re: part 2 (just over the limit)

[permetaform]

Of your vids, I think the only one I know the fandom for is the POTC one. I'll gladly write feedback for it (and try not to worry too much about how little I know), unless you have another you particularly want critted?

that's fine! Don't worry about what you know or don't know. What *I'm* interested in is how it affects you: does something work? does a clip feel like it's lagging or off? what are you feeling at particular points of the vid?

The analysis can come later, what I do is first just jot down *what* I like, on the gut-level, only later look at it and attempt to figure out why something worked the way it did.

Comments, part one

[elynross.livejournal.com]

I found this a fascinating exercise to observe, with you evaluating the vid, then reading Mary's reaction, then yours to her.

One thing that I wonder is how much you focused on Mary *telling* you she was a first-time vidder, and keeping that in mind as you watched. I say this, because I know that I would never have pegged it as a vid from a first-time vidder, had I not known, because it shows a very sophisticated grasp of movement, both within clips and from clip to clip, as well as timing, and the effective use of literal clips without overusing them. Given the quality of first-time vids out there, this one reflects a grasp of possibilities that most don't, to my mind.

But for you, and the tone of your review, that seems to be a primary consideration in approaching the vid. More of your commentary seems to focus on what Mary ought to do, in vidding in general, than on what *this vid does*. That's not a bad thing, certainly, probably helpful, in fact, but it was unexpected, as I approached this as a review of Mary's vid, not a tutorial for the newbie vidder, I guess.

I do have the advantage of having talked with Mary a lot, and I know how much she's studied vidding before even starting out, and how she sought out mentoring and really works with it.

One of the things that struck me is your emphasis on narrative, which seemed odd for a vid review of a vid that's openly and intentionally non-narrative -- a character study, and a comic one, at that. I know when I first started really understanding the dimensions and layers possible in vidding, years ago, I had to consciously work not to try too hard to seek out (and possibly over-impose) a narrative structure on a vid, because it could cloud what the vid itself was actually trying to do.

I found your discussion of contemplating one's style/aesthetic to be alien to me. The style or aesthetic is what comes from the vid or writing, for me. You recognize a particular vidder/writer's style as you watch their vids, but it's not often, in my experience, that said creator sits down and contemplates how to "create" their style in a given vid, because it's creating it that *makes* it their style. It seems like you might believe that any given vidder should (or does) stick to a particular "style," including whether their vids are narrative, or not, intentionally -- and maybe some do. But for the vidders I've worked with (Killa, Lum, Here's Luck, Sisabet, Seah&Margie) it depends on the fandom, the song, what they're trying to do with any given vid. In each case, some of their vids are narrative, some are not.

I do think different vidders have different strengths and inclinations, but I question the idea that a vidder should sit down and make a single choice about how they approach *vidding itself*, outside of the specific vid they're working on.

What I'm unsure of, at this point, is what your vid aesthetic is. ie. what you *like* to see in a vid and thus is the ultimate goal of your own vids.

My reaction to this is two-fold, that it's hard to determine an overall aesthetic from a single vid, and that I'm not sure how this is relevant to the review of an individual vid. I also wonder if you're trying to impose a narrative on a non-narrative vid, and therefore not seeing what it is as clearly as you could.

Maybe it's a matter of not understanding what you were attempting with these reviews; as I said, this seems less like a review of a completed vid, presented for other viewers, and more like an individual tutorial about vidding, in general, for some purpose that isn't quite clear to me, in context of it being a review. (cont. in part two)

Comments, part two

[elynross.livejournal.com]

If you are *losing* the thread of the vid by trying to handle the other stuff, then you need to reassess what the thread of the vid is.

By this, are you saying you think she did lose the thread of the vid in LTID? You also say you aren't getting what the thread of the vid *is*, so I'm guessing so. But how much of that is a presumption of the kind of thread you're looking for, do you think? I'm not saying it is, I'm just wondering, based on my own experiences. I remember watching Lynn Cherney's SG vid to "In Your Eyes" when it debuted years ago, and totally not getting why so many vidders I really respect were *raving* about it. Granted, my own critical faculties for vids were less developed then, but I also realized after rewatching it later that I was thrown by it not really having a concrete narrative or theme beyond "this is a really cool show, with really interesting people and relationships". It was a great con vid, really blew people away, and it was more of an *experience*, something to just let wash over you, than it was a storytelling/narrative vid. Of course, merryish still insists there *is* a narrative, but I'm still not seeing it, although I've learned to appreciate the skill that went into the vid, and I enjoy it a lot.

One thing that may or may not be a good piece of advice (again, dealing with what vidding style you're aiming for) is that you might want to be careful about literal clips. Your literal clips match well to the music and to the lyrics, but it might help more if they were part of some larger theme.

I think this is great standard advice, but I'm having trouble seeing what prompted it in *this* vid. Yes, there are some literal clips, but I don't find any of them to be *solely* literal -- they also show another layer of correspondence, or great movement or context, which is one of the things that's key in using literalism well, something done to great effect in good comedy vids. Again, this seems a rather sophisticated move on the part of a technically first-time vidder.

I can see this vid playing well at a convention because it's easy to take in during one sitting.

Oh, it did. *g* It was chosen to open the second half of the Escapade show, and got the biggest response of any vid to that point, from my perception.

Emotionally, I'm not sure that I could say a complete thread was carried through all of this, so that there's emotional arcs in the vid.

I think there was a complete and ongoing thread of longing for something more, but being willing to enjoy life until that comes along, if it does. But I also don't think that every vid necessarily has (or needs) a single thread or arc beyond "Wow, this character is great! I love this character!" which can be done very effectively with great motion and timing. Killa&Lum's "History Repeating" and Seah&Margie's "Black Cat," come to mind here. Vids can have a variety of threads that hold them together, sometimes thematic, sometimes narrative, sometimes visual, etc.

What I admit that I was disappointed by was that you didn't make the vid more ironic, because Iolaus died so freaking *much* during the show, and I think you just showed one of the deaths?

And see, I think the vid is ultimately much more effective for not going the (to me) more obvious, literal, and easy route of showing a lot of deaths. We have Iolaus being tortured, we have him coming back to life in Herc's arms, we have a lot of intimations that his life is dangerous and hard, but the emphasis is on how he keeps grasping his joys, even if the one he wants the most (Hercules, in this instance) may elude him sometimes. I don't see that showing more obvious deaths of his would have come across ironically, but it certainly would have been a very different vid. I'm just afraid that such a choice would have left the viewer thinking that it was *overly* literal, since it's about living till you die, and boy, Iolaus sure does die a lot. (Good grief, cont. in part three)

comments, part three

[elynross.livejournal.com]

I'll emphasize again that at this point you'd probably want to figure out what vids you like best, and perhaps *why* you like them. That'll help you figure out both what you'd like to see in your own vids and your potential audience.

This conclusion really makes me think that this is less what I think of as a review, an evaluation of the vid itself, and more a tutorial for Mary alone. If your intent is to talk solely with the individual vidder, rather than open up conversation *about the vid*, that works great -- but I was rather disappointed that there wasn't more critical evaluation of the vid itself. Although I seem to have found quite a lot to say anyway. *g*

That said, you're one of the few of us actually putting your money where your mouth is in talking about specific vids, and I surely laud that. As a reader of your LJ, though, I'd like to see you more address the wider audience beyond the vidder herself.

Um. That's all. *cough* Sorry for the mouthiness. I... really like this vid. *g*

Re: Comments, part one

[permetaform]

This review comes on the heels of a recongition that there is a, sort of disenfrancized? audience in regards to non-narrative vids.

To be truthful, I don't know how to help this kind of vid, I was flailing around for comments throughout most of this review. I mentioned this in the post that generally the way I vid imposes a narrative just so I can figure out what to put there. The way I write in generally in metaphor, and same with the way I vid.

I haven't talked with marycrawford so I don't know if she's shooting towards a more narrative vid. I don't know if her intention for *this* vid is *anything* beyond an expressive vid about love of a character. I liked it as an expressive vid, but have no clue about how to give concrit about an expressive vid other than concentrating on movement and for the most part she'd got that covered already.

I'm not attempting a review and more of constructive criticism. What I'm critiquing in an indirect way is that there isn't much narrative in her vid; but I know that this probably isn't the intent of her vid *anyways*. Personally, I like to see a least a little narrative in a vid, but I didn't want to impose this personal preference of mine on a vid that probably isn't shooting for that. And, again, I don't know how to help a non-narrative vid; so I just stuck to constructive comments about where to go from here.

Re: Comments, part two

[permetaform]

By this, are you saying you think she did lose the thread of the vid in LTID?

no, I was saying, from personal experience in doing "Why" and "The Fragile" and "Gravity", that if you (general "you") concentrate on doing too many things at once you'd start loosing contact with the reason for your vid, I tend to be detail-oriented in a vid and this is dangerous and I sometimes need to take a step back and look at the vid as a whole.

_{Emotionally, I'm not sure that I could say a complete thread was carried through all of this, so that there's emotional arcs in the vid.}

I think there was a complete and ongoing thread of longing for something more, but being willing to enjoy life until that comes along, if it does.

Exactly. but emotionally, *I* didn't feel (using the definition of 'feel' from this post) that there was any change, no thread-of-change. There was a thread of joy and longing, but emotionally, for *me*, there wasn't any.

I think this is great standard advice, but I'm having trouble seeing what prompted it in *this* vid. Yes, there are some literal clips, but I don't find any of them to be *solely* literal -- they also show another layer of correspondence, or great movement or context, which is one of the things that's key in using literalism well, something done to great effect in good comedy vids.

whoa. y'know, I think you just helped me figure out that I'm way more narrative-ly orientated than I always figured myself.

I'm just afraid that such a choice would have left the viewer thinking that it was *overly* literal, since it's about living till you die, and boy, Iolaus sure does die a lot.

::wry grin:: well, the entire vid was very literal and I kept expecting to see him die more (or at least die, once, *concetely*). It felt a bit like a tease.

Re: Comments, part one

[elynross.livejournal.com]

This review comes on the heels of a recongition that there is a, sort of disenfrancized? audience in regards to non-narrative vids.

Howso? I find that non-narrative vids tend to be the best received at cons, because the audience tends to not have any ambivalence about how to respond -- they can more easily follow the images and ideas, without having to tease out any kind of storyline?

To be truthful, I don't know how to help this kind of vid, I was flailing around for comments throughout most of this review.

See, this is a key point for me: you were approaching it as a means of helping, not reviewing. I was expecting to get your impressions of the vid, what you thought worked, what didn't -- not read what sounds like basically a beta of an already finished vid. I wonder if those asking for reviews were expecting reviews, or concrit? Either way, it is less conducive to generating conversation, because it excludes anyone but you and the vidder, really -- unless you're pushy like me. *g*

Re: comments, part three

[permetaform]

This conclusion really makes me think that this is less what I think of as a review, an evaluation of the vid itself, and more a tutorial for Mary alone.

Exactly. It's ConCrit; or at least what I find most helpful in constructive criticism, which is feedback pointing out both what I did well, and where I can go from here. It's *public* concrit for the reasons stated in the initial post I'd offered concrit in, and the various posts that it links to.

My intent, first and foremost, is this concrit feedback for the vidder, and then further hosting discussion in the comments.

but I was rather disappointed that there wasn't more critical evaluation of the vid itself.

Again, I don't quite know how to improve a non-narrative vid. Especially one where I don't remember the entire source, I'm familiar with it enough to know what's going on but I'm not familiar with it enough to suggest clips. I think she did a great job with matching movement to sound, and was tamping down my own reaction to wanting slightly more narrative in the vid.

I'm not sure how to address a wider audience beyond the vidder, or rather: I don't know how to give concrit analysis in a way other that how I already am doing, could you elaborate on this? or give examples so that I could improve perhaps?

My general methodology is to
1) focus on the vid and what it does right, enourage that
2) find where the vid can improve, point that out
3) give some sort of advice for the vidder for future vids

And again, mostly focusing on the vidder him or herself. Secondary consideration is the emphermeral group of vidders that vid like them and/or are at their level.

I'm not sure that these concrit *could* be helpful to any wider audience, except as an example of what concrit *could* look like.

But, well, from your comments I got the feeling that you were looking for something specific in my concrit that was missing...but I can't tell what that is. A general review of a vid? a *hard* review of a vid? addressing a wider audience? I...sorta am just stumped on what you're looking for.

Re: Comments, part one

[permetaform]

oh. OH. you weren't here for the mild wankyness.

I was expecting to get your impressions of the vid, what you thought worked, what didn't

o.0 er. I think it's a difference in communication styles. As far as I was aware, that's *exactly* what I did, only I expressed what didn't work for me in a very roundabout way.

Clarification Re: Comments, part two

[permetaform]

There was a thread of joy and longing, but emotionally, for *me*, there wasn't any.

::headdesk:: cut off the sentance. it's supposed to read, "for *me*, there wasn't any thread-of-change."

Re: Comments, part one

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Oh, God, I did see that, and I thought you were very calm in your reaction. Man.

And okay, yes, I can see you gave your reactions, but... Hrm. I think it's mostly a matter of confounded expectations on my part, which were my fault. The whole expecting discussion of the vid in greater specifics, but since you were having trouble grasping the intent of the vid, that *would* be difficult, I agree. *g*

And really, I have a lot of sympathy with that. As I said, I had to train myself out of always looking for a deeper level in things, because that's generally my preferred type of vid. Just letting myself experience it is sometimes difficult.

Re: Comments, part one

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Oh, also, on the wankiness -- I thought the post was crocked, and had no clue what she was talking about. I wouldn't take her PoV as evidence of much of anything beyond thinking she knows what she's talking about, when she doesn't. She's like the people who want to shut down public critical discussion of stories because she doesn't find it fun, it's pretentious, and therefore nobody else thinks it's fun, too, we're just wanking for the audience.

ptoohey.

Re: Comments, part two

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Exactly. but emotionally, *I* didn't feel (using the definition of 'feel' from this post) that there was any change, no thread-of-change. There was a thread of joy and longing, but emotionally, for *me*, there wasn't any.

Hmm. I guess I don't agree with the implication that there should always be emotional change over the course of a vid. But it's perfectly valid to just say, "this just didn't click for me," of course, because that emotional thing is so very subjective -- I can't watch that vid without smiling all the way through it, and feeling uplifted at the end of it, but there are other vids that have gotten tremendous emotional response from many people I respect that leave me cold.

y'know, I think you just helped me figure out that I'm way more narrative-ly orientated than I always figured myself.

I admit in reading your comments, it comes across that you privilege narrative over anything else, to the point that a lack of clear narrative throws you completely. *g*

well, the entire vid was very literal and I kept expecting to see him die more

Huh. I think the vid was very directly illustrating the lyrics, but only occasionally and truly literal, such that what the lyrics say is precisely and only what you see in the clips. Like, fire when the lyrics say fire, in a way that doesn't correspond to anything else in the vid. For me, literalism is simply one more tool in the vidding box, that can easily be used badly or ineffectively, in a way I don't think was done here.

[elynross.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how to address a wider audience beyond the vidder, or rather: I don't know how to give concrit analysis in a way other that how I already am doing, could you elaborate on this? or give examples so that I could improve perhaps?

Oh, I don't think it's a matter of improving, necessarily! Just addressing a different audience. It's the difference, maybe, between constructive criticism and criticism/review. The former is for the vidder, the latter is for everyone else. You send feedback to an author; you talk about a story with your friends, what you liked, what you didn't, without (necessarily) regard for specifically what you'd change/how you'd change it.

And again, you're focusing on helpfulness; as a reader/reviewer, I focus on discussion -- although frankly, it's helpful for people to talk about texts, whether writing or vidding, both because it can clarify things for other creators, educate your audience as to the types of things you might look for, and intrigue people into wanting to read/view the text.

Really, this is making me want to do more reviews, if I can find the mental energy and make a choice as to what to review. *g* I'll think on it.

If I were reviewing Mary's vid for a larger audience, I'd have described particularly choices more fully, and then talked about why I picked those, what I liked or didn't like, or why. I'd talk about how the vid made me feel, what drew me, what put me off, what choices puzzled me, etc. Think of it in terms of a movie or book review, maybe? In addressing the wider audience, you're attempting to provoke discussion, have people join in as to where they agree or disagree -- basically, it's just one-half of a conversation, and you're hoping to inspire people to the other half.

Mind you, the times I did this on vidder, it tended to sink like a rock, with no response at all. Someone has to want to talk back. *g*

Re: Comments, part two

[permetaform]

I guess I don't agree with the implication that there should always be emotional change over the course of a vid.

Me too; but that's what I like in a vid, and I honestly don't know how to give her advice that wouldn't impose a structure that isn't *her* aim. And I don't know how to make the vid any more uplifting than it already is.

it comes across that you privilege narrative over anything else, to the point that a lack of clear narrative throws you completely. *g*

aheh, well, I was sorta trained by sisabet and lum. I've always organized clips by intent into a larger whole. I'm not quite sure what to advise a vid that's purely there to create mood, because it's difficult for me to create mood unless it's in a narrative context.

I'm not sure that there's any better advice for creating mood (out of narrative context) other than movement and choosing better clips. I think she did a great job with movement and I can't help her choose clips because I don't know the source in clip-by-clip depth.

Re: Comments, part two

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Me too; but that's what I like in a vid, and I honestly don't know how to give her advice that wouldn't impose a structure that isn't *her* aim.

Okay, see, this? *This* is the kind of stuff that would have intrigued me and clarified your criticism. To say more directly: What the vids I really like have in common is an ability to move me emotionally (perhaps saying more specifically how), and LTID just didn't move me that way, maybe because I look for narrative in vids, and this seemed to be a non-narrative vid. As you said yourself, you kind of talked around some of what you were trying to say, and in a way, you avoided giving what your actual emotional reactions to the vid *were*, it seems like.

I think she did a great job with movement and I can't help her choose clips because I don't know the source in clip-by-clip depth.

See, I have a really lousy clip memory, even for shows I've seen repeatedly, like HL, or Buffy or Angel. What I do is just say to Lum or Killa, "this isn't working. You need something that does this, or is more of a close-up, or something. Fix it," and if they see I have a point, they go off and try and find something that works. Poor Killa had to do that just yesterday, going literally through every single bit of Duncan&Tessa footage. I felt like such a bully. *g* Okay, she didn't go through all of it yesterday, but by the time she found clips that worked for both of us, she'd done so. *g*

I'm really still much less secure about my vid-betaing skills than my writing ones. With writing, I can both see the outline of where a story is trying/should go, and make specific, concrete suggestions as to how to achieve that. With vidding, I have to kind of describe around it and trust in my vidders to achieve it. Fortunately, they're brilliant. *g*

[permetaform]

I'd have described particularly choices more fully, and then talked about why I picked those

o.0 er. considering the length of my reviews already, I think discussing particular choices more fully will lead to my head exploding. My personal view on this is to only review what I think will help, and at this point I don't know if being more detail orientated is what is necessarily more helpful, and I would rather be more helpful than hurtful.

The thing with reviewing vids for larger audiences...I'm not even sure who this larger audience is, or even if there's a large enough audience base. Most vid-watchers I know are vidders themselves, and speaking as a vidder myself I would rather have helpful discussion. Most non-vidder vid-watchers don't usually seem to participate in vid-discussion; and I think (this is all theory) it's because vid-discussion not as vitally important to non-vidders as it is to vidders.

Vidders, I think, care more about discussion because it's their craft. It's like caring about POV and sentance structure and paragraph formation for fic-writers I think; for people who just lurk or are just readers, I don't know that they'd necessarily *care* about that level of detail. I know when I was just a reader that I, just speaking for myself, didn't care. I didn't have the time or energy to care, I just wanted the fic.

Especially when marycrawford indicated that she was a newbie vidder, I wanted to give her advice that might help, and not turn her off from critique in specific or vidding in general. As a vidder, I'm sympathetic to vidders, so I'm writing my reviews carefully because I know that pretty much the only people who'd have interest in these concrits are vidders themselves. That's where I'm coming from.

Re: Comments, part two

[permetaform]

ahh. see, I tend to try to speak carefully about subjects in general. For me, there's no use in speaking unless I know it won't cause harm. It's differing communication styles.

you avoided giving what your actual emotional reactions to the vid *were*, it seems like.

...well, yes.

::is confused::

um, communication breakdown again. Clarify?

Re: Comments, part one

[permetaform]

she, herself, might be like the people who shut down public critical discussions, but I know there's people who prefer the clear-cut stories, and I try to keep that in mind.

Re: a few comments

[marycrawford.livejournal.com]

Hey, thanks for joining in! And yes, this was definitely helpful. Detailed feedback about what works for you and what doesn't is just great to have.

Also, I'm very interested in hearing how the vid works for someone who doesn't know the source. It's Hercules: the Legendary Journeys, which is a rather small fandom these days, really. (Excellent fannish overview here (http://www.livejournal.com/community/crack_van/249753.html).) So when you say that this makes you want to see the show, just picture me cheering. *g*

I liked the "literal" shots--[snip]--this may partly be a function of my unfamiliarity with the source, and grasping onto whatever I can find. :-p

Hee. There are many vids I love that I don't know the source/context for, and sometimes I need those shots to ground myself, as it were, so I know what you mean. Also, I'm especially pleased that you liked the swordfight at the end, because that was one of my own favorite moments.

the one place where I was a bit thrown at first was at the beginning of the midway moody-bluesier?-slower part of the music, because I wasn't so prepared for the shift in tone

:nod: Makes sense. The music slows and turns moody twice, on 'these blues I lay low', and the first time that happens, there is a very long closeup of Iolaus - that's almost a break in the vid, because the shot is much longer than anything else, and I have a hunch that that may be what threw you off. It was something I decided to risk trying. :-)

[elynross.livejournal.com]

My personal view on this is to only review what I think will help, and at this point I don't know if being more detail orientated is what is necessarily more helpful, and I would rather be more helpful than hurtful.

Oh, sure! I was just doing a "what if" -- if you wanted to review for a larger audience. It was my misconception that this is what you were aiming for in the first place, I realized.

The thing with reviewing vids for larger audiences...I'm not even sure who this larger audience is, or even if there's a large enough audience base.

I would say the popularity of VividCon indicates there is -- and a significant portion of our membership are non-vidders who love vids, myself included. And maybe the only way to... "educate" the audience, the people who say they don't know how to feedback on vids is to give them examples, I think, not on the level of your kind of concrit, which is more sophisticated and intimidating than your average viewer will perhaps want to attempt.

Vidders, I think, care more about discussion because it's their craft. It's like caring about POV and sentance structure and paragraph formation for fic-writers I think; for people who just lurk or are just readers, I don't know that they'd necessarily *care* about that level of detail.

I think you're underestimating at least a portion of your audience. Vidding isn't my craft, but I work hard at increasing my understanding and sophistication in viewing, and I know a number of other non-vidders who feel the same. I know others who have become vidders because they were interested in the discussions about vidding. Sure, vidders themselves have specific reasons for the interest, but I think you're limiting your potential audience unnecessarily -- and in some ways, perhaps, justifying the anonymous twit's perception that it's a closed circle. Yeah, lots of people won't be interested, but a lot of people love to talk about writing and what makes it work who aren't and have no desire to be writers.

In fact, I think that the level of vid-discussion you're talking about is really only "vital" to a particular kind of vidder, just like critical discussion of writing is only interesting to a certain portion of fan writers. We're just lucky enough to be emersed in that section of the fannish community. *g*

...so I'm writing my reviews carefully because I know that pretty much the only people who'd have interest in these concrits are vidders themselves.

And yet, here I am. *g*

Re: Comments, part one

[commodorified.livejournal.com]

AH. Ok, that's why you were checking.

*bows* Your manners are impeccable and your behaviour most kind, Mi'lady. Go to town on my vid, if you think it needs it, and I shall take it in good part.

Re: Comments, part two

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Hrm. You gave some timed specifics, and said I like this, this is good, so it wasn't like there wasn't any emotional reaction, but I don't remember at any point that you really gave your personal reaction to the vid overall, why it wasn't working for you -- and I really think it wasn't, however much you can appreciate the technical aspects -- and that's okay.

Again, keep in mind that I had a misconception as to the aim of the exercise, given the talk about wanting to increase vid discussion overall that's been floating around.

What you seemed to do -- probably to avoid causing harm, as you say -- was back away into non-specifics, speaking generally about vidding in ways that implied a certain reaction to the vid, without actually saying, "And this applies to this particular vid in this way."

I do understand not wanting to cause harm, but when you're really trying to give constructive criticism in a way that will help someone improve, it's a risk you have to take. You have to be pretty specific about what worked and what didn't, and why, which can be done without intending to hurt anyone. Whether they're hurt or not anyway you ultimately have very little control over, I find. Devolving into generalities makes it harder to really communicate about the text in question, I think. But it is okay to say up front, "I don't really think I'm the audience for this vid, so my help may be limited."

Re: Comments, part one

[elynross.livejournal.com]

Oh, of course there are, and that's great! It's when that preference is used as a club to beat on people who like those *and* things of greater complexity that it becomes a problem for me. You (one) can try and keep in mind every possible potential audience, but every choice you make as a vidder will quite probably limit who your ultimate audience actually is.

[permetaform]

I would say the popularity of VividCon indicates there is -- and a significant portion of our membership are non-vidders who love vids, myself included.

o.0 buh? I mean, I realize that VVC had non-vidding membership, but I didn't realize that so few vidders were going...but then again, I guess I was just comparing this to a science convention, which besides BAScon is the only con experience I've had.

not on the level of your kind of concrit, which is more sophisticated and intimidating

...

::blinks::

::had no clue::

but I think you're limiting your potential audience unnecessarily

or in effect, replace the right words and it's the connecting to the audience discussion all over again: Do I go for the more general review in hopes of hitting more people, or do I go for the specific concrit in hopes of being more effective? ::wry grin:: In this regard, I would rather it be effective, and to do that I'm tailoring it to the vidder.

_{...so I'm writing my reviews carefully because I know that pretty much the only people who'd have interest in these concrits are vidders themselves.}

And yet, here I am.

Which was why I qualified my statement with "pretty much", because I am tailoring my concrit to the vidder and similar vidders I do not demand that there be a wide audience. Note that I am *pleased* that it's of interest at all to a wider audience than I expected, but I'm not *directing* this towards a wide audience. That's not my aim; it's nice, yes, but I was trying to be helpful to the vidder more.

Re: Comments, part two

[permetaform]

But it is okay to say up front, "I don't really think I'm the audience for this vid, so my help may be limited."

::nods:: I'll definately keep that in mind.

You have to be pretty specific about what worked and what didn't, and why, which can be done without intending to hurt anyone. Whether they're hurt or not anyway you ultimately have very little control over, I find.

Difference of philosophy in communicating. To my view, concrit always hurts on some level, changing always hurts on some level; what I'm trying to do is present my thoughts in a way that shows where I'm coming from, what possibilities there are, and to show that I'm coming from a logical place of discussion and to clearly clearly show that I'm sympathetic to their end-goal.

Intending to hurt, yes one has very little control over that, and it'll happen anyways in concrit I think. Being *effective* however, is something I can control. And in terms of giving critique, this has been what worked best for me as a style of rhetoric; I haven't had much long-term success with any other style.

In any case, my emotions tend to be all over the place on any matter in general, it's hard for me to pinpoint sometimes what I'm feeling unless it's happyness, joy, or squee. You'd notice that I pinned 'feel' very carefully in the post, and only address emotional arcs on the level of narrative.

[elynross.livejournal.com]

I mean, I realize that VVC had non-vidding membership, but I didn't realize that so few vidders were going...

I'm not sure how you get from "a significant portion are non-vidders" to "so few vidders [are] going..." Twenty percent is significant. *g* I would guess that most of the members are vidders, but don't assume all of them are. At a rough guess, I'd say a quarter to a third of our members are not vidders themselves. In any case, we very specifically cultivate both viewers and vidders.

::had no clue::

Well, you're talking about timing, about narrative, throwing about vidding vocabulary that the average viewer isn't familiar with. That right there puts your conversation on a level above your average viewer of vids -- and not a few vidders.

Which was why I qualified my statement with "pretty much"...

Yes! My point was simply that the assumption underlying this choice -- that hardly anyone else would be interested but the vidder -- seemed flawed. If nothing else, even other vidders can learn from the criticism of someone else's vid.

Re: Comments, part one

[permetaform]

but every choice you make as a vidder will quite probably limit who your ultimate audience actually is.

...but every choice one makes in giving concrit will quite probably limit who one's ultimate audience actually is.

To reinvent your words.

Re: Comments, part one

[permetaform]

=D cool.

[permetaform]

Twenty percent is significant.

in most science conventions I've been to about 90% or more are either practicing researchers or intending to be. so yes, relative to that, it's few.

Well, you're talking about timing, about narrative, throwing about vidding vocabulary that the average viewer isn't familiar with. That right there puts your conversation on a level above your average viewer of vids -- and not a few vidders.

huh. ::feels like has been in bubble::

Yes! My point was simply that the assumption underlying this choice -- that hardly anyone else would be interested but the vidder -- seemed flawed.

::points::

Re: part 2 (just over the limit)

[permetaform]

after some thought, especially with the discussion below, I think in regards to this comment I made in my post:

Emotionally, I'm not sure that I could say a complete thread was carried through all of this, so that there's emotional arcs in the vid.

...that I, personally, connect more with vids that go through an emotional arc somehow, and I'm not sure that I got that from your vid and I'm not exactly sure why.

[permetaform]

okay correction, totally misread your note about 20% significance, ignore comment (I'd thought you meant that 20% were *vidders* and I was like o.0)

Re: part 2 (just over the limit)

[marycrawford.livejournal.com]

That helps, thanks. I'm not sure I have a lot to add to the discussion below, though I've been following it with fascination. And I do like to hear about what didn't work, and why this vid didn't connect with you - that's not something that's going to offend, at least not me. *g*

But it's 0:40 and I need to go to bed. Will try and write feedback/review your POTC vid tomorrow. :-)

Re: part 2 (just over the limit)

[permetaform]

but see, it works with me on the being entertained level. I liked watching it; but it didn't connect/engage with me. Your vid *worked*, but it didn't *connect*, and I think that's more of a function of who *I* am rather than what your vid did or did not do. Because as far as I can tell, technique-wise you did great. You matched movement well, and your clips made sense with the movement. The only way I could understand that your clips *might* not work is that they might be too literal for me.

But literal clips *has* worked for me before, but I noticed that they tend to be more effective for me if they were part of a larger theme, a larger narrative so to speak.

But I sense that the larger narrative isn't the *point* of your vid. So that piece of advice isn't useful to you.

'Cause I sense it's sorta like if I had an orange; now I think oranges are great, they're tangy and tart. They just aren't apples; and the only advice I'd be able to constructively give to make a better orange is to make it more like an apple.

Now, it's probably perfectly possible to make an applange; do you *want* to do that, tho?

[permetaform]

And so even now I feel intimidated going into comments on a vid, because I often feel like I lack the vocabulary and the sophistication to be able to say helpful and germane things.

well, here's where I'm drawing a blank, because I'm not sure which vocabulary you're talking about. could you point it out so that I can add it to my blurb up on top?

Re: part 2 (just over the limit)

[marycrawford.livejournal.com]

OK, it took me a little longer than I intended, but my review of 'Gravity' is up here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/marycrawford/96092.html). :-)

To return to your comments: no, you're right, I don't want to make an applange. *g* But I think what I'm trying to say is that knowing how it did or did not connect with you is still useful to me, even if I decide I'm not going to change the vid. Thanks to this whole discussion, I'm getting new ideas about narrative and non-narrative vids and how other fans see them, and that's valuable to me.

Re: part 2 (just over the limit)

[permetaform]

::HUGS YOU::

that was cool beans.

And I'll keep all this in mind for my next review, this *is* very helpful to me too.

[permetaform]

huh...umm, so would a vocab list page help?

[permetaform]

heh, will think on it some more then...