Conclusions in The Great Will Debate...

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The original Debate thread

In process of being discussed/updated...erm, and contains Elizabeth and Jack musings too...

last updated around 10:30, PLEASE point out redundancies and points of disagreements...(ie, the questionmark next to Will's confidence,..)



Agreements:

Will in a fantasy world
Will has a strong childside
Will as a computer geek
Will is competent in his field of knowledge
Will's field of knowledge is a bit limited at times
Will being a dumbass sometimes
Will being young
Will growing up throughout the movie
Will is illiterate
Will's confidence(?)
Elizabeth is ruthless
Elizabeth is pirate-y
Elizabeth is adaptable in pirate situations
Elizabeth is a romantic
Jack is on Jack's side
Jack doesn't like to get his own hands dirty
Will is able to learn
Will is sheltered emotionally
Will realizes Undead Pirate
Will is rash
Will is emotionally suppressed by the established hierarchy.



Differences:

How rash IS Will?
Degree of Will's suppression by the established hierarchy
Piracy-Justifiable in the end? (would matter towards Will's view of pirates at the end)
Degree of growth in the movie
Will's competency
Will's confidence(?)
Will has logic/common sense


Trigger Paradoxes:

definition: an action that would definitively prove a characterization one way or another that is non-canon; ie. if Jack pulled the Trigger and shot Will in the smithy.

Shooting Will, y or n?
Will telling Elizabeth (in cave) he loves her
Elizabeth knowing that Jack is a pirate when she first wakes up
Will being nicely dressed at Jack's hanging


Sequel theories:

Elizabeth turning evil



Note: ok, I HAVE to study for my math final (::kicks linear algerbra books::), so I'm AWOL until about...4 pm (Pacific)? that should give jaida and cali time to come back from lunch and get settled.

In the meanwhile, feel free to leave your thoughts on the matter.

Comments

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

I'm actually going to replay to things here, so like.... well, because we have left such an enthused!puppy!mess on MK's journal, and here is a fresh page to attack that is not under her fab fanfiction. ^__^;;

It seems that the things we have differences on are things that can't be quantified, properly, so rather than agreeing for the sake of agreeing or not agreeing at all it's more like it might take us another two days to chart those things out. XD;;

Regarding elements, yes, Will is very much earth and fire, rather than anything else; he grounds himself and then sinks deep and becomes obsessive over it.

Elizabeth? Fire and Air. She lacks a bit of focus at the wrong points (execution scene, Jack's reaction to rum), with streaks of stubborness untempered by water.

Jack is definately Water and Air. Expansive, diffusive, and infinitely flexible. Incidentally, is what makes the relationship with Elizabeth 'spark'.

Hmm... I'm going to have to disagree on this somewhat, I've already debated this out with ladyjaida and we partitioned it out to Zodiac signs, because that's the most easily quantifiable system of character personality specifics possible.

I don't see Will having as much fire in him so much. I'm positive he's a Capricorn, which lends a certain inflexibility to him, and colors a lot of his general characteristics. I think, if anything, his ascendent or rising sign might be an air sign, which would color his occasional detachment from things, that certain feyness about him. But this air element is only rising or ascendent, for a person that doesn't use this classification system much, don't know if you do, that means an air sign is influencing him sort of... from the edge of things. Not even sure what air sign it is.

Elizabeth sort of strikes me as a Leo. In a lot of ways, a very strong fire sign, taking into account how volitle she can be, her need for control, and her need to take charge. I can't figure out what her influences would be, though, and there's something about this assignment that I haven't squared with myself, I just don't seem to feel her character well enough to know what it is. So maybe not.

Jack, meanwhile, I'm possitive is split cleanly between fire and water, a walking contridiction, and nothing fixed about him. I feel there's definetly something burning hot in his personality, the mutability of water, but not the detachment of air. I can only see him on the Pisces/Aries cusp, in terms of classification, which was something I pinned before I went and had a look at what that cusp was supposed to entail, personality wise.

So, I agree that elementally Jack and Will are direct opposites, but I disagree on what elements their personalites match to.

should I go on my Jack and Will rant here?

You could go into it right here. :)

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heh, ok, more through answer after I finish noting down everything in the threads.

the elements I were referring to were less zodiac-derived than palmistry derived. (incidentally, if you want me to do a reading for you, scan your hands in and I'll see what I can do, yeah?)

but seriously I'm really interested in what you're saying about the zodiac signs, I dabble in it occasionally but more like as not most people only know their sunsigns. Incidentally, I'm a March 17th, Gemini acendant, Aries Moon. Which is probably why I'm able to tell when Jack's being out of character, but for the life of me can't pin him completely down...

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

LOL, yes, I actually meant ascendent and moon and not ascendent and rising. I feel like such a bad bad... person who was not thinking what she was writing. ::slaps self on hand:: I am March 25, Virgo ascendent, Leo moon. I find the zodiac the most detailed system for like... being able to refer to very detailed information for illustrating what you're talking about, I suppose. I hold with its influence in life, but as a character classification system it's really without peer. ^_^ I would certainly be interested in a palmestry reading although I warn I have like... crone hands, they are just unnatrually lined. ::will likely photo face too and be like "HELLO, NOT SIXTY":: XP

On the Aries/Pisces I was also going to note, with Jack, that although he does not act so much sensitive and compassionate on the outside, he has to have an extreme sensitivity to other people's emotions/moods to be able to play them like he does.

Zodiac wise, though, it's driving me crazy that I can't get the grip on Elizabeth to chart her out. @__@

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crone hands, they are just unnatrually lined.

...you get stressed a lot? Like your worries overtaking your brain-type?

Either that, or do you mean the lines are unnaturally *deep*??

and yeah, I see what you mean about the character classification sys. and Virgo ascendent? lol! No wonder that debate occured...

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yeah, what was it? something like 70 comments?? aheh.

It seems that the things we have differences on are things that can't be quantified, properly, so rather than agreeing for the sake of agreeing or not agreeing at all it's more like it might take us another two days to chart those things out. XD;;

Exactly. But I'd like them stated clearly and aboveboard so to speak so that we'd be able to take it into account in our discussion.

on elizabeth:

there's something about this assignment that I haven't squared with myself,

maybe toss in a sense of duty? loyalty? but it'd have to be weighted carefully, and maybe only through the other planets (nonAscendant/Sun/Moon) perhaps scorpio?

and:

Thankfully, Capricorns are patient, too, and are happy to wait for their ship to come in.

::gigglesnort::

ok, this is not helping, need to focus demmit, but ooo, pretty new site...

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

Do I think Elizabeth is a Scorpio? You know what. Maybe that's the problem. I think I do think her sun sign is scorpio. Water sign, sea lust, that fits in. Maybe with Leo moon sign, ascendent like... Gemini or something, I don't know, something air. Something along those lines. ::ponders:: Yes, that seems to fit more in my head. And she reminds me of Barbossa, and I'm positive Barbossa is a Scorpio with strong Taurus influences. So.

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I'm not sure if I would have her as Leo moon, the air sign as moon sure, but ascendant usually means that would be a first impression of Elizabeth. The moon sign is more hidden, less obvious, like it's not obvious that she's a pirate fangirl... I could be off tho.

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should I go on my Jack and Will rant here?

You could go into it right here. :)

It's posted up at my livejournal...