permetaform | Ode to Jack/Will (or, rationalizing my current pairing quirk)

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Ode to Jack/Will (or, rationalizing my current pairing quirk)

Assumption: Will does not have his head on straight what with his Elizabeth obsession and Jack just has tons of failsafes, emotionally, in place.

So why Jack/Will?

Because of the miffed way Will said, “I suppose you didn’t deserve that one, either?” and his face when he said this.

Because when Will appears after the Interceptor explodes, one of the first faces who turns to look is Jack, *after* which you get a shot of Elizabeth going “Will!”

Because of Will’s look in the cave scene when Elizabeth and him was interrupted, kinda a lowering of the eyes, like masks falling back into place and the way he says, mechanically, to Elizabeth ‘you should be getting back to the Dauntless’.

Because of the look on Will’s face when Jack implies in the last scene that something happened with Elizabeth on the island, (said it’s not going to work out with Elizabeth), and Will looked downward, a bit sad?, in response and because of his subsequent sideways smile when Jack said nice hat, and Jack’s pause at saying nice hat, and Jack’s not taking advantage of Will to improve his legend more.

Legend you ask?

Jack is very conscious of his own legend, which he made himself and aggrandizes, (“you will always remember this day as…”). The whole point of that speech just before he fell was to create a distraction (never mind that he’s distracting them with *himself*) so that he could escape and Jack boosts his own legend at the same time. He gets in the faces of the Governor of Port Royal himself and the Commodore responsible for wiping out most of the pirates by that time, sideways also giving himself an out with Norrington ("look, I'm on *your* side, not the whelp's"), also to show that they’re buddy buddy. He increases his legend in the same way with Elizabeth, he basically saying, in front of a group of *soldiers*, "sorry, turned *you* down", thus increasing his own image as a playboy. And then he gets to Will, a hero-type-person whom he mentored, with the blood of pirates and with‘pirate’ tendancies, and for whom he has loads of teasing saved up for, and what does he say?

nice hat.

And, this the thing that convinced me actually, is the way that they are just, settled already into each other's space, physically, habitually, and gramatically.

Will intrudes in Jack’s physical space as much as Jack does his, and Will usually holds this space around himself, even with Elizabeth until the scene where she steps into the circle of bayonets as well, which is the only other time that Will is that in sync with someone else’s space. Will manages to keep up with what Jack’s speeches, he finds the loopholes in Jack’s reasoning, and understood him, up to a point, the cave scene when he steals the coin and about the honest and dishonest men. And in the bit about the “hair…from my back”, where Gibbs looked satisfied with the explaination, Will still looked unconvinced. The only other person shown to be able/willing to second-guess Jack was Norrington, who was actually outwitted twice (commanderring the Interceptor, and the last skeleton battle) and Barbossa. Incidentally, those are also favorite pairings. But I'm not trying to argue that here, so. Back to the Jack/Will.

In the beginning, there was somewhat more of a mentor-student dynamic going on, but it progressed to, if not entirely equals, then to a more equal footing. Will is pretty much one of the few, if not the only, who could keep up with Jack. This is noteworthy because, ok going into Jack analysis here, Jack *forms* his own personal space.

Jack, with all his motions, encourages people to lean away to give him space and to give themselves space so that they could watch him. Notice throughout the movie his interactions with people, there’s like a space created for him, and he *controls* it because
1) he forces people to make room for him and
2) because he encroaches into other people’s spaces.

He basically has control of the space at any given moment, people that try to control it instead are either tangled up (i.e the first scene with the redcoats and jack), obstructed (barbossa), or swatted away (ie. the cave scene, with bo’sun and various pirates). Will somehow manages to maintain staying in Jack’s personal space without getting tangled up himself and getting in Jack’s way. The only other person who held his own against Jack’s manipulation of this personal space is Norrington, but this also caused Norrington to try to outmaneuver Jack to disastrous results. True, this may be simply that he’s mirroring Jack. Then again, he doesn't mirror Elizabeth until the last scene. And in the bonfire/rum scene when Elizabeth and Jack were mirroring each other, it got on the far end of cliché, and there was tension yes, but awkward tension. Note how far Elizabeth had to lean to settle into Jack's shoulder.

Perhaps there’s no thick and sizziling tension between Jack and Will, but there doesn’t need to be because it seems like its somehow already resolved, like there’s already understanding and they’ve been married for ages and the slash goes right under the gaydar.

You could say, then, that this is just the pirate form of the buddy cop movie.

Then again, we've already seen where they've taken the buddy cop movies…

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I guess, well, I'm still going to need some time to think this through more, but the foremost part we differ on here is that I never feel Jack is exactly comfortable with Will in his space. I always get the impression he's very much like an old cat with a big-footed puppy following it around, where the only reason the puppy isn't stepping on the cat's feet is that the cat is gracefully dancing clear of the pup. I really feel that Will is only in Jack's space because Jack is making room for him, in terms of needing him, and the only time he ever really comes close to being ruffled with him him is in the "Try not to do anything stupid" scene, where Jack finally sets Will outside of his space because he's a bit tired of him interfering with his mojo, and gets smacked in the head with an oar for it. True, they do synchronize very well at the ending, but again I put this as Jack's ability to synchronize himself to anybody as he is wont more than any natrual ability they have to fall in pace with each other. He's been tolerating Will in his space this whole time and now it's useful because he knows how Will moves. Still, I only see it as toleration, and, for the most part, necessity.

At the very end of the movie, with the "Nice hat." comment, I take it mostly that Jack is suddenly feeling comfortable with Will and is like "Oh, that was nice, he's useful after all." and that he is indeed giving him a bit of something special, for that, in a buddy-buddy way, respecting Will a bit, finally, but not so much before that, when Will was very much a hinderence to his ability to act freely. Hmm... those are, anyway, my intial thoughts, will comment more later when I've sorted this out in my head a bit more.

but the foremost part we differ on here is that I never feel Jack is exactly comfortable with Will in his space.

actually, no, we *don't* differ there. I agree with you on that point.

*Jack* is in control of his personal space, usually, and very few people are actually able to challenge him in this area. Even with Barbossa, I get the feeling that he has more control in the situation than Barbossa, when he shrinks in on himself, it's through *his* choice.

What we have Will doing is just charging in and setting up shop next to Jack, blatantly, unreservedly, unapologetically. He's *challenging* Jack on this level in a way, though he's a more than a bit bull-in-a-china-shop about it.

And yes, Will frustrates Jack, sharp-edgedly. Besides the scene in the cave just before Jack gets beaned by the oar, Jack was also really miffed when Will started going off about his dad and pirates that causes Jack to twap him with the boom. Jack never really shows frustration elsewhere, even in the scene with the rum burning, it's a very rounded, blunted frustration and overreacted like Jack knows very well what he's doing.

With Jack, you have to pay attention to when he's *quiet*. Like the "Bring me that horizon" line, or the Pearl is freedom line, or when he's in the boat and Elizabeth apologizes, or when he throws off a flippant, "Nice hat."

Jack is not *suddenly* comfortable with Will at the end, again the hat comment. They may inhabit each other's physical space yes, but there still a bit of a 'wtf do I do with this whelp?' kinda feel.

And again, Jack increases his own legend in his exchanges with the Governor, with the Commodore, and with the Governor's daughter, dramatic body movements and the like, in contrast to his comment to Will.

Even if, as you've mentioned, he's just making fun of Will's hat (and I can see this actually), why is he teasing Will? Why is their exchange just for Will? Why this focus? It does nothing to improve Jack's situation. And Jack is always on Jack's side...

Jack never really shows frustration elsewhere, even in the scene with the rum burning, it's a very rounded, blunted frustration and overreacted like Jack knows very well what he's doing.

Hmmm, I'd have to disagree there. I think Jack was very much throwing a hissy fit. He didn't have much else to do with his day. Elizabeth had just burned all his rum and he wasn't in the state of mind to think through about the logic of her plan and he was hungover and irritated and fustrated and then decided to have a big, manly bitching-and-kicking-sand-drama-queen-fit, as opposed to almost pulling his gun out and waving it around and suggesting he just go ahead and kill one or the other of them, I would imagine, although that itself is a bit of a trigger paradox. What we do know is Jack walked way off across the island to have a sulk and a good bitch. From the fact that he was continuing to bitch to himself as far away from Elizabeth as he had gotten I can only take it that it was a very real emotion for him, at the time. Jack does come across to me as a little childish and "The world is about ME" at times. He's not very responsible, and he's a bit volitile. He can control that when he needs to play people, sure, but I think at that point he figured that he'd sit on his end of the island and she'd sit on hers for about two days and then they'd have a lot of sex and then they'd starve to death so he might as well let it all out.

Why is their exchange just for Will? Why this focus? It does nothing to improve Jack's situation. And Jack is always on Jack's side...

I have to hold to my opinion that it was a "My! You were useful!" moment, where he was feeling very inclined to Will for just springing him from the noose. Jack is a rather whimsical fellow and his moods and affections are likely as fleeting, so I can't really see it as anything particularly signifigant more than a momentary fondness more than any specific want of Will. I have a strong feeling Jack doesn't form any really deep bonds or attachments even when he has a longer term fondness for people, that seems rather out of character to him. He loves the ocean, but she's always changing her face, so it's not like he could ever get bored of her, and he loves the Pearl in a different way, I think it's more in the way a guy loves his precious sports car. He's attached to her, but she's still something that belongs to him more than, say, a lover. As much an accessory of his as the trinkets in his hair. He'd probably get those back rather vindictively too, they're likely each there for a reason. Just speculation, that, though.

Will note I also assume Jack thought they had a long time together from the part of the script in the JN that would be the cut scene:

"You should look at it this way," he told her as he began to build a fire. "We've got some food on the trees. And we've got rum. We can stay alive a month, maybe more."

I think Jack was very much throwing a hissy fit.

but that's what I mean. It's a *temper tantrum*, you mention yourself near the end of your entry that he basically have himself a Time Out, walking to the other end of the island. This doesn't *matter* much to Jack, not on the level of Will's inability to grasp that a good man can be a pirate not, and not on the level that Will's antics were frustrating Jack (just before beaning Jack in the cave)

and yes, this description is my idea of Jack too:

I have a strong feeling Jack doesn't form any really deep bonds or attachments even when he has a longer term fondness for people, that seems rather out of character to him.

...but what in the *world* does it have to do with Jack/Will? That was never in the argument. What I was trying to argue was that they, as a pairing, *fit*...

where he was feeling very inclined to Will for just springing him from the noose.

then what about Elizabeth, who stood up for him? and if it was a "yes, useful whelp" kinda thing, *still*, why not use him to gain attention?

"where he was feeling very inclined to Will for just springing him from the noose.

then what about Elizabeth, who stood up for him? and if it was a "yes, useful whelp" kinda thing, *still*, why not use him to gain attention?"

Ah, but the thing is, Elizabeth never actually has to risk her *life.* When Will sprung Jack from the noose, he was essentially creating his own death sentence with Jack if they couldn't escape.

Elizabeth, while she plays the final push that allows Jack and Will to go free at the end, never risks her life at the end scene. She knows perfectly well that Norrington and her father would *never* let anything happen to her.

As for not using Will to gain more attention and thus advance his own legend... I think that this point in particular could rather be endlessly debatable. My stance on it was that Jack was feeling obligated (as much as Jack feels obligated to anyone) to compliment Will or to leave Will with something poignant and hopeful, afterall Will was willing to die with Jack and did spring him from the noose. However, Jack was unable to find something to say. (I think there was a definite pause before Jack's "Nice hat" saying in which he looked rather... hesitant and undecisive.) Thus Will's hat provided a nice conversational piece... since it was big and was most obviously on Will's head. Had not Will been not been wearing his hat, Jack would've also found something rather trivial to comment on. But that's all from my point of view. As to the *reason* why Jack doesn't use Will as an attention seeking device, all I'm saying is that perhaps that attention seeking impulse of his was just rather stunted for the moment after that whole ordeal with Will.

Whether or not Jack actually *liked* the hat is another trigger paradox.

I agree here that the really key thing is Elizabeth was acting under a blanket of total safety, as I mentioned in the Elizabeth Sub-Debate the way it bothered me a bit, in ways, but point standing is that, yeah, she didn't risk her life for Jack at all, knowing it simply wasn't very profitable to her, she waited until the tides turned to really take a stand, despite abetting them earlier in the escape attempt.

but that's what I mean. It's a *temper tantrum*, you mention yourself near the end of your entry that he basically have himself a Time Out, walking to the other end of the island. This doesn't *matter* much to Jack, not on the level of Will's inability to grasp that a good man can be a pirate not, and not on the level that Will's antics were frustrating Jack (just before beaning Jack in the cave)

Hmmm, I misunderstood you a bit there, but I think the only difference between him throwing a hissy fit on the island and bristling at Will was that he didn't have time to throw a hissy fit at Will and thought he had all the time in the world on the island to throw as many hissy fits as he wanted. He was, I would say, equally fustrated by these things, and acted out against them as much as he had time to at the moment, but they were set aside for more pressing things because he simply had no time to sit around and watch Will be stupid. He needed Will on his side, on the Interceptor, because he couldn't crew it himself, and he couldn't get his ship back without him, so no use bitching at him, there. In the cave he allows himself to get a little bit worked up, but far short of stomping around and kicking sand because Barbossa is right over there and demands his immidiate attention. This isn't special attention to Will so much as special attention to things besides Will that give him no time for reactive things against Will's stubbornness at all. I can't see in any way that Will's opinion mattered to Jack except that it was currently an opinion very inconvient to the situations at hand.

...but what in the *world* does it have to do with Jack/Will?

Well, what I meant to say is that Jack is not forming any particular attachment to Will, here. As I think it was ash rose said, somewhere on the other post comments, Elizabeth and Will may be left with a very strong impression of this but Jack is constantly getting himself into wild adventures. Will was a bump in the road, and a bump in the road that he became a bit inclined to for saving his neck, but in the greater scheme of things I don't think there's any particular way in which Will stood out, as a bump, aside from the fact that he was necessary at the time for Jack getting his ship back. I never saw Jack forming any particular attachment to the movie so much as he would give him more than fleeting special attention for a job well done. Once he has the Pearl back and is setting sail again, I don't think he's much going to think twice about Will and Elizabeth, and if he'll even write them is an iffy question.

*attachment to him in the movie so much

I think with the "nice hat" comment jack was showing his satisfaction at Will's conversion to pirate (or pirate-like). Jacks an ego man (as was pointed out before), he may have been subtly flaunting the manipulation of Will to follow in his fathers footsteps. or something like that. You guys are really putting to much thought into a disney movie. even if it is for slash.

?? It's less the fact that Disney might or might not have inserted this meaning into the movie intentionally, and more of trying to fit what we are shown into a logical whole. It's understood that Disney might've just made it to be entertaining; but to create a plausible derivation of a character in fanfic I think all aspects of what we are shown in the movie (even if it's a random throwaway action) should be integrated.

Yes, in a way we're probably over-analyzing this. But that's the only way to make sense of Jack as a character.

I generally agree with Calichan's assesment of the Will and Jack dynamic.

My first impressions on the hat line. I actually interpreted it as Jack not quite knowing what to say to Will in his terms of farewell. For me, Jack seemed to be a bit hard pressed to find something good to say about Will. After all, Will did have a certain habit of ruining Jack's plan almost to the point of oblivion.

And voila, the hat was there, and Jack said: Nice hat. And to me, Will seemed a bit confused and perplexed in a sort of: Erm... thanks... kind of way.

And as for my opinions on Jack, they're a bit unresolved as of yet.

Also, I think Jack was -- quite simply -- making fun of Will's taste in clothing. Jack obviously is very ... into hats. Good hats. Trustworthy hats. Hats that serve a purpose: to make one look cool.

Will's hat? So not cool.

Hence, Jack called him on it. XD

Hence, Jack called him on it. XD

but WHY? Of all the comments he made then, that was the only purely personal one, one that the audience doesn't care about and won't pay attention to and won't add to the reputation of Capt. Jack Sparrow.

There's more in the vein in my comment to calichan ::points up the thread::

I actually interpreted it as Jack not quite knowing what to say to Will in his terms of farewell.

yes, precisely. This is Captain Jack Sparrow, weaver of stories and legends and his own myth who can talk his way around people until their dizzy and can't tell their own ideas from what he's put there.

And he can't find a thing to say except "Nice hat?".

For me, Jack seemed to be a bit hard pressed to find something good to say about Will.

er? clarification? because he didn't say anything good about the Governor, he's encouraging Norrington because it makes him look chummy with the Establishment and so that he'd be more lenient, and he did a wicked turn on Elizabeth's reputation and honor.

After all, Will did have a certain habit of ruining Jack's plan almost to the point of oblivion.

...and this is a bad thing how? I like the sideways mini-confrontations they have, the snarkiness and the confrontation. The----should I dare say it??----the one-upsmanship of the two.

Their is a very wierd dynamic, because of the betrayals, because of the mentor-student aspects, because of the Pinky and Brain kinda thing (but who's Pinky and who's the Brain?), as well as something that reminds me a bit of the situational one-upsmanship in Little Nemo between Marlin and Dory. Only not.

It's more and less and freakishly *different* than any dynamic I've seen yet because of the odd balances between the characters, how Will has a higher class than a pirate but how Jack is a Captain (but only in certain situations!) and the age difference and yet Jack's childlike nature which is altogether *different* than Will's childside. Only not.

I've mentioned in another post how I like to be shown something new in writing, and *this* is one of the more unique relationships I have ever seen.

Arrr! So many posts! One step at a time.

"This is Captain Jack Sparrow, weaver of stories and legends and his own myth who can talk his way around people until their dizzy and can't tell their own ideas from what he's put there.

And he can't find a thing to say except "Nice hat?"."

I differ from your point of view on Jack in the way that I believe that most of his manipulative, self-inflating attributes aren't *so* heavily based on conscious decision. I view him as a man who gets talked to alot by little voices that pop up from time to time. And he generally makes a conscious-subconscious blur of a type of choice to act on those voices to do his various characterized things... such as: Self promotion or manipulation or passive-agressiveness or whatever whatnot.

Okay, perhaps I shouldn't quote everything I'm going to reply to and just reply.

Let's see... my point of view on Jack boils down rather differently from what I understand your point of view to be (correct me if I'm wrong.) Your view of Jack is that he's, more or less, completely conscious of nearly every single behavior/act/word he does and that with every single thing he does there is an ulterior motive hidden beneath it.

My point of view of Jack is more... subconscious while being conscious of his subconscious... An odd medley and mixture of rational conscious decision and other more emotional forces at work within him. He enduldges in those subconscious erm... forces and thus we have his almost random, free spiritedness that is also mixed with his general goals of making Jack's life better, which can be expressed in many ways, self promotion as you've said before. But he's not completely instinctive or whatever you want to call people who are solely emotional, he consciously asesses each of those subconscious forces (I really do truly hate these terms and wish I can find something that's more suitable for what meaning I'm trying to convey) so that he isn't completely irrational.

Argh. Perhaps I need to think about what my views are on Jack some more before I can convey them more eloquently.

erm...gah. More clarification on my part. I'm really sorry for being so obscure.

My concept of Jack is that he increases his own legend in the same way that some people are nice or some people are mean. He doesn't consciously work through each tiny little step in his brain, just like people are nice. Jack just *is*. He is majorly intuitive, (

calichan's pinned down Jack as a Pisces/Aries cusp in the 'Conclusion to TGW Debate" thread, but he's very aware in that he naturally plays to an audience, even when they're sometimes not there. There comes a point where manipulation, if you choose to call it that, becomes so integrated into your every action that you don't realize that you're doing it.

And everybody uses a form of manipulation unconsciously, it's part of the habits and rules and workings of all human cultures.

Hmmm... Yeah. Have given this more thought, am sorting thoughts through a bit more. I just don't get the buddy cop vibe from Jack and Will. Jack is very independent, very much carrying himself along on his own, whimsical path, and Will can never seem to not manage to step right in the way of him, as ash night said: After all, Will did have a certain habit of ruining Jack's plan almost to the point of oblivion. Will sees through Jack's facade a little more than other characters in the movie, but it isn't until the "opportune moment" look when they're in front of Barbossa that Will ever actually manages to act in a fashion complementry to Jack's actions. Although after that moment they're a bit more together on things, finally getting on the same wavelength, when their wavelengths finally click, in that scene of synchronized action, Jack's off to The Pearl and Will's left to his lass.

Hmmm... On the scenes you mentioned:

Because of the miffed way Will said, “I suppose you didn’t deserve that one, either?” and his face when he said this.

He just seemed to be giving Jack snark, in this scene. I didn't read much anything into it besides that. Because Jack had been making so many excuses, and he was pre-empting his excuse that time because he was expecting it.

Because when Will appears after the Interceptor explodes, one of the first faces who turns to look is Jack, *after* which you get a shot of Elizabeth going “Will!”

In Elizabeth's defense I must say that Barbossa had just suggested to a lot of pirates that they should have their way with her and she was likely taking a moment to catch her breath in the respite of them having stopped groping her and feeling a bit too addled to respond immidietly. Jack was not in such a comprimised position that he needed recovery time.

Because of Will’s look in the cave scene when Elizabeth and him was interrupted, kinda a lowering of the eyes, like masks falling back into place and the way he says, mechanically, to Elizabeth ‘you should be getting back to the Dauntless’.

I agree that there were masks falling back into place, but this is because Will realizes that Elizabeth is engaged, then, with the clash and the moment to let his thoughts come together, and feels suddenly it's not his place to tell her he loves her. When Jack comes and tells him he just missed his opportune moment, Will only looks mournfully after Elizabeth, barely sparing a glance to Jack (http://kimera.shadow-dancing.net/potc_832.jpg).

Because of the look on Will’s face when Jack implies in the last scene that something happened with Elizabeth on the island, (said it’s not going to work out with Elizabeth), and Will looked downward, a bit sad?

Well, yes, but Jack just implied he might have gotten it on with his girl, and Jack's sheer mack is rather intimidating to live up to. I think that was more of a "Did the girl I love flirt with that man or worse!?" moment. While Jack is flouncing about in that scene, Will and Elizabeth pretty much spend the whole time ignoring him and staring lovingly into each others eyes with the lovey feeling of unity they've stumbled upon.

Well, the "Nice hat" bit we all seem to have different opinions on, but I do think it was a rather friendly quip, in terms that Jack didn't feel he had any impression he needed to leave with Will.

Then again, he doesn't mirror Elizabeth until the last scene.

Have to disagree here, the two fight as a unit *very* effectively, throwing that bar back and forth to each other, that scene where Will hits the guy with the bar and Elizabeth finishes him off with a kick, especially. The two fight as a unit with as much coordination as Jack and Will do.

And in the bonfire/rum scene when Elizabeth and Jack were mirroring each other, it got on the far end of cliché, and there was tension yes, but awkward tension. Note how far Elizabeth had to lean to settle into Jack's shoulder.

I think the awkwardest thing about it was Elizabeth was playing him and therefore not responding to his mack in an understandable way, and as for the space, I don't think he was gauging depth perception very well at that time. I think he also had a moment of realizing she was not as drunk as she should have been with as much rum as it'd looked like she'd drinken when he stared at her bottle a long time, but then was too sloshed to care and kept drinking anyway. Hopefully we'll see the cut scene before that with them chatting on the beach and drinking, because I've seen shots of that and the script of it is in the JN and that part is very cute between them.

about the mirroring, I wasn't referring to the fighting; more I was referring to body language and placement and proximity.

as you've wrote here:
It was just that she didn't have Will with her on things and couldn't seem to get him to go along with her that fustrated her, rather childishly herself at the time, I'd add.

Will doesn't go along with her on things, His body positions before were facing her, but curved away, as if he was afraid to touch her. In the cave scene there was *still* this space between them when they were talking, and it took the last scene for Will to mirror Elizabeth in her closeness to him.

You're probably right about the rum scene tho, but I didn't know there was a cut part, and yeah, hopefully we'll get it in the dvd

and Will can never seem to not manage to step right in the way of him,

umm, actually, that happens in alot of the buddy cop dynamics, I made a comment on this up in a previous thread in this post I think, that it's partly the very same fact that Will get's in the way that makes the dynamic so interesting to me. ie. the competent guy v. the comic relief. For example, Rush Hour or Bad Boys both have this dynamic, and the leads usually pass the roles of competent/incompetent around a bit or in different ways. MiB for instance, Jay (Will Smith) messes up occasionally because he's new but he's more competent in the area of social interaction than Kay.

What we have with Will and Jack is that his dynamic is taken and then totally shaken and mixed up. Jack is the more experienced one, but is also the comic relief *and* the master plotter. Except when he *isn't*, like how he was unlucky with the jail lock and how he came in on a *sinking* ship, and how he managed to get himself thrown in the brig.

After all, Will did have a certain habit of ruining Jack's plan almost to the point of oblivion.

...and this makes me wonder a bit if your views of Jack are a bit unrealistic. He mucks up his own plans just as often as he gets himself out of messes, and at least part of the time he doesn't even know *himself* what might happen next.

but I do think it was a rather friendly quip, in terms that Jack didn't feel he had any impression he needed to leave with Will.

and you don't think this strange? Knowing Jack? friendly just doesn't mean the same thing to him, what with the betrayals and the bayonets, keeping his cards close to his chest and whatnot. Jack *is* random, but NOT arbitrarily random. Think Hamlet, the differences between when Hamlet was 'acting' random to seem insane and when others *thought* he was random because they didn't get his references. Almost all of Jack's statements make sense if you have the full picture, like the 'honest' speech or the But why the rum? outburst.

"Nice hat?" yeah...umm...

especially after rewatching that scene roughly 10 more times now, and scanning it scene by scene, especially with Jack's expression just then, it's not a casual goodbye.

As for the other scenes, I think it might be one of those subjective things. ::hands you slash glasses and grins:: I'm not quite sure as to your beef with Will but, oh well.

Oh! incidentally, while I was scanning that last scene frame by frame I noticed something interesting:

When Jack started on his, "Well, we've all come to a very good place..." speech, Elizabeth was looking at Jack until Will kinda tugged on her hands and then they did their whole, staring soulfully into each other's eyes.

Now, this could just be that Keira forgot herself for a moment and Orlando was just keeping her on track. But! I think there's fuel for fic somewhere in there, eh? ::grin::

Jack is the more experienced one, but is also the comic relief *and* the master plotter. Except when he *isn't*....

This is true, but I think when things go that wrong for Jack he just knows to expect a miracle. He has impossible good luck, really, and if that miracle is Will or something totally unrelated to Will isn't a key worry to him, I don't think. In the movie, it happened to be Will.

He mucks up his own plans just as often as he gets himself out of messes, and at least part of the time he doesn't even know *himself* what might happen next.

This is true, but when he's mucking up his own plans he's conciously changing course, 'that didn't work, try another tactic'. Jack's still always in control of what Jack does. This doesn't mean that he doesn't have a specific end goal in mind, it just means he's doing whatever's most convient towards it at the time. When Will steps in and mucks things up, he's an element Jack can't necessarily control, which is entirely different from redirecting your own plans. Instead of getting him closer to his goal, as that behavior does, Will has the chance to ruin Jack's ability to reach his goal entirely. Just because Jack is stupendously good at bootstrapping and in fact has adpoted it as the whole and sum of his method doesn't mean that he's not headed towards the same end goal the whole time.

and you don't think this strange? Knowing Jack? friendly just doesn't mean the same thing to him, what with the betrayals and the bayonets, keeping his cards close to his chest and whatnot. Jack *is* random, but NOT arbitrarily random.

I don't think it was strange. I don't think it was arbitarily random, either, but this is addressed better further up above this. I think it's giving Jack too much credit to say he doesn't have his moments of just tossing people things because he feels like it. He's a free spirit, so that option isn't really denied to him, either. He's not quite operating on a system.

Heh heh, that's true, I always thought it was Will kind of going "Hey, are you okay with this? Doing all right?" but it could be Kiera missing her cue, too.

Ok, since there seems to be major misunderstandings going on here, let me just say that I firmly believe that:

1) I don't think you're EVER going to be able to drag Will away from the forge for long.

2) There is no way in HELL that Jack is giving up the Pearl or the Ocean

3) 'pairing' does NOT imply the same thing as long-term 'relationship' or One True Anything.

4) *Everything* ends in a mixture of tragedy, and hope.

in effect, I *don't* belive that theirloveissocanon or theirloveissopure or theirloveissoperfect, in fact I usually *avoid* those pairings.

This is NOT to say that I don't like the concept, for instance those stories of Johnny Depp and Vanessa Paradis just makes me warm and fuzzy and happy. No way in hell you are going to rock that 'ship. But I'm not going to write it, and it's going to take a HELL of a lot to make me read Johnny in any pairing.

However, we are not arguing whether their love is pure and such and such, or...are we? Again, please please note the journal entry above this where I explain my views on writing and pairings. I'd hate to think that we're all arguing in circles because it's not like Jack/Will is my OTP, because, really, I don't believe in OTP in terms of writing and fanfiction.

Please reply to this so I know what ya'll are thinking...

I guess what I'm trying to see is any place for Will and Jack to be paired, like, at all. I can't see them having shown any interest in each other in the movie, and I'm trying to make clear how I'm not following you on the points you're stressing as moments of potential romantic chemistry. We may have to broaden this discussion to potential Jack/Will scenerios, because I can only see a handful of those. Like I've mentioned before, it's not like I haven't written this pairing, and not like I'm not willing to write it, it's just that the common way it's written makes no sense whatsoever by the characters, and I'm still not feeling that what you're seeing in the movie is reflecting the characters I saw in the movie, I guess. I feel much more comfortable debating this with you than with someone whose OTP it is, although it'd be nice if we could snooker a few more people into this who see more in the pairing.

I seem to have found the conclusion to TGW debate. Fascinating stuff. Love fangirls who are intelligent *beams at fandom*

::hugs fandom:: yeah! I'm having such fun here it's incredible, and I haven't written this much fic in *ever* and people are having such fun experimenting with forms and everything! Amazing it is, I swear.

Oh, and again mass apologies for the Will Debate that kinda majorly spammed your comment list...like a hydra it was, insane I say. Insane.

But utterly fun and thought provoking...

::blinkes::

I think I lost my point. I'll shush now.

No worries. It was amusing and thought-provoking. More than made up for the spamming. Parts of the PotC fandom are wonderful and I'm glad I'm involved in these certain parts (thank God for my scarce exposure to Mary Sues and badfic).

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Ode to Jack/Will (or, rationalizing my current pairing quirk)

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Points of Clarification

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