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So I meant to meta about Ford today and post my drabble from ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
bascon on him, but like, see...
I'm remembering![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
lierdumoa's Genderbending meta, specifically how:
MEANWHILE.
Rodney. And Cadman.
Season 2; Episode 4: Duet. (and I'm leaving this un-cut 'cause there's no way to truly spoil you for this episode, it has to be SEEN to be truly appreciated)
Tomboy girl in the guy's body. ::FLAILS::...dude, it's like whatlierdumoa was saying about John Sheppard made literal. Cadman even played Capt. Kirk for Katie Brown! XD (and did the flirty thing and did the hip-cocking...)
I don't even know if they're doing this on purpose but...are they seeing what they're writing? That's just so *cool*, and it only escaped my notice because I was so used to seeing this from fic.
[edit] On hindsight, my babble wasn't very clear. (wah, happens often. ::headdesks::)
Elaboration--
lierdumoa's point: it disturbes me (in regards to my own issues and etc) to think of Sheppard as a girl because it's like finally finding feminine equality only to lose it again, because I find Sheppard as a point of identification. Through him, as a girl, there's is a vicarious sense of, well...equality, of being able to flirt and whatever and have it be socially sanctioned. So John-as-a-girl fics seem temporally-regressive to me (ie. as if he was from some future, more progressive era, moving back to when women had less independance/control), and it removes some of the nuances that drew me into the character. (ie. the fact that it is easier for him to be just 'one of the guys' than it is for, say, Teyla)
My Main Point: Cadman in 'Duet', being in Rodney's body, made literal the idea of the tomboy in a man's body (which in the character of John Sheppard is made subtext); basically a girl with male priviledges. Perhaps the writers wrote John Sheppard as an idealized-female-with-a-cock on *purpose*; then the Cadman/Rodney dynamic in 'Duet' only is a further indication of the show's writers' awareness of SGA's genderplay.
[edit2] Upon thought: what do ya'll think of SGA's flipping of roles with Teyla and Ronon? Not that they're not both eye-candy, but for some reason I'm getting the eye-candy warrior-chick vibe more from Ronon than Teyla. And Teyla projects the stoic, strong village leader that you usually see with a male character.
Ordinarily the archetypes would call for a male tragic hero with a plucky side-kick girl who might or might not be the source of brute force (magical!girl) who wears skimpy outfits and gets one-liners...
...This makes me want to see Ronon in a leather skirt.
'Cause ya'll know that would be hawt.
[edit3] This post brought to you by mental wanderings caused bycereta's Fandom and Male Privilege post
[edit4] FYI, my personal fannish background: my first (het) fandom was Ranma 1/2, where a guy changes into a girl whenever splashed with cold water. I returned to this fandom later after I've discovered the joys of m/m. =)
bascon on him, but like, see...I'm remembering
lierdumoa's Genderbending meta, specifically how:If John were a woman, fandom would make assumptions about him that we don't make because he is not a woman. Or rather, the fandom would conclude that the writers were making assumptions about "women in general" in writing John. Offensive assumptions. The fact that John is a man is, well, interesting. I honestly believe John is the product of a bunch of male geeks getting in a room and trying to envision the perfect man and, being heterosexual, instead envisioning the perfect woman and then giving her a cock. I'd call it subversive if I weren't so sure the writers were doing it completely on accident.Which, incidentally, is why Girl!John makes me (on a personal level) cringe because it's like taking an empowered woman and then just stripping all of it away again to corset her or to bind her feet or to snip off her clit and just...I can take most darkfic, but this type of darkfic just brings up so much rage that I just don't go near it to remain zen.
I mean, think about it. If it were on purpose? So subversive.
MEANWHILE.
Rodney. And Cadman.
Season 2; Episode 4: Duet. (and I'm leaving this un-cut 'cause there's no way to truly spoil you for this episode, it has to be SEEN to be truly appreciated)
Tomboy girl in the guy's body. ::FLAILS::...dude, it's like what
lierdumoa was saying about John Sheppard made literal. Cadman even played Capt. Kirk for Katie Brown! XD (and did the flirty thing and did the hip-cocking...)I don't even know if they're doing this on purpose but...are they seeing what they're writing? That's just so *cool*, and it only escaped my notice because I was so used to seeing this from fic.
[edit] On hindsight, my babble wasn't very clear. (wah, happens often. ::headdesks::)
Elaboration--
Summary ofMy aside to
lierdumoa's point: it disturbes me (in regards to my own issues and etc) to think of Sheppard as a girl because it's like finally finding feminine equality only to lose it again, because I find Sheppard as a point of identification. Through him, as a girl, there's is a vicarious sense of, well...equality, of being able to flirt and whatever and have it be socially sanctioned. So John-as-a-girl fics seem temporally-regressive to me (ie. as if he was from some future, more progressive era, moving back to when women had less independance/control), and it removes some of the nuances that drew me into the character. (ie. the fact that it is easier for him to be just 'one of the guys' than it is for, say, Teyla)My Main Point: Cadman in 'Duet', being in Rodney's body, made literal the idea of the tomboy in a man's body (which in the character of John Sheppard is made subtext); basically a girl with male priviledges. Perhaps the writers wrote John Sheppard as an idealized-female-with-a-cock on *purpose*; then the Cadman/Rodney dynamic in 'Duet' only is a further indication of the show's writers' awareness of SGA's genderplay.
[edit2] Upon thought: what do ya'll think of SGA's flipping of roles with Teyla and Ronon? Not that they're not both eye-candy, but for some reason I'm getting the eye-candy warrior-chick vibe more from Ronon than Teyla. And Teyla projects the stoic, strong village leader that you usually see with a male character.
Ordinarily the archetypes would call for a male tragic hero with a plucky side-kick girl who might or might not be the source of brute force (magical!girl) who wears skimpy outfits and gets one-liners...
...This makes me want to see Ronon in a leather skirt.
'Cause ya'll know that would be hawt.
[edit3] This post brought to you by mental wanderings caused by
cereta's Fandom and Male Privilege post[edit4] FYI, my personal fannish background: my first (het) fandom was Ranma 1/2, where a guy changes into a girl whenever splashed with cold water. I returned to this fandom later after I've discovered the joys of m/m. =)
Tags:
no subject
But you are saying that the character would be, well, less of a character if he were a woman and not a man?
Small words. I need those, I'm running on mountain dew and I had to reread your post six times to just make sure I was on topic. *covers face* But I had to ask.
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John Sheppard, if the writers *meant* to write him as a girl with a cock, is subversive because he's a male action-hero with female characteristics. Usually that would be labeled gay and prevented from being produced, but they've managed it in SGA.
My aside was that it disturbes me to think of Sheppard as a girl because it's like finally finding feminine equality only to lose it again, because I find Sheppard as a point of identification. Through him, as a girl, there's is a vicarious sense of, well...equality, of being able to flirt and whatever and have it be socially sanctioned. So John-as-a-girl fics seem regressive to me, and it removes some of the nuances that drew me into the character.
My final point is that Cadman in 'Duet', being in Rodney's body, made literal the idea of the tomboy in a man's body, with male priviledges. Perhaps the writers wrote John Sheppard as a idealized female with a cock on *purpose*; then the Cadman/Rodney dynamic in 'Duet' only is a further indication of the writer's awareness of SGA's genderplay.
no subject
Watch out for the twaddle here.
From the linked post, I get that taking John down the path of being 'female' with his character intact would be depressing as John gets all his respect from the detail of being male. Not that his character is lessened by having ovaries instead of testes, but that he lives in a world (i.e. military/warring planets etc.) that devalues his 'in character' personality traits. I have noticed that he acts the 'bimbo' a bit, that would backfire very badly if he tried that as a 'girl'. He seems to see the world from an oddly 'female' perspective but not be defined by that perspective. His gender to me is strangely irrelevant in some respects. Weird (and mostly twaddle) but my impression.
*attempts to distil twaddle*
In a female body, he would be underestimated and devalued by the people around him. =(
Re: Watch out for the twaddle here.
In a female body, he would be underestimated and devalued by the people around him. =(
Yes! exactly! I love the fact that Sheppard is able to bring a perspective and a methodology that is characteristically coded as feminine, and yet is *valued* for these tactics.
Re: Watch out for the twaddle here.
The elaboration is fantastic =)
It's as if those characteristics that are normally seen as derogatory (by some) are valued higher, simply because they are removed from any baggage-attracting-gender of the character.
It's a vindicate-y feeling.
Re: Watch out for the twaddle here.
::nodnodnod:: exactly! =D
Re: Watch out for the twaddle here.
I was thinking about Kavanagh and his reactions to Weir.
He's not obvious in the overt way that most "sexist" characters might be in that he might start out a bombastic, opinionated arse
and finds redemption and admiration for Weir The Strong Leaderbut in a way that he uses something as a genderised threat. He slides around saying Weir hasn't theballsstrength to lead properly. He brings up humiliation and castration. He seems very centred around the subject and somehow manages to be more offensive than any of Rodney's demands that his hallucination!Sam take her top off.Maybe I'm just not used to that character, I did just mainline almost two seasons worth in the last two weeks. Through personal experience though, I've come to pay attention when any woman describes a man as 'creepy', so my little bell went right off. I'm not certain if Novac did describe him as that exactly but close enough and I know it was a red herring but it still explained to myself at least what I found so weird about his characterisation. I'm not certain who else has been 'seen' speaking against him, I think it's just been John, Rodney and Novac. If Cadman in Rodney's body is a *wink*, what does this say about the writers awareness of their gender positions?
Ronan in leather skirt. *now has to draw it* Bugger.
Re: Watch out for the twaddle here.
::nods:: yes! And that's why I hesitate before clicking on any relationship fic with Weir because it has to have her dynamic very very carefully. Because even if you don't want it to be, Weir having a relationship would affect her position at Atlantis, so the issues would have to be navigated properly.
If Cadman in Rodney's body is a *wink*, what does this say about the writers awareness of their gender positions?
::nods:: If it helps any, I was surprised to find out that there's apparently alot of women in Sci-Fi's production team, compared to other shows, and actually I wouldn't be surprised if there was a woman writer hiding in there as an assitant. (though I'm near 100% sure they don't have ANY writer who's familiar with negotiation/diplomacy ::headdesks:: though it's a tossup whether it's partly because they're poking at Weir's competence as a diplomat in the face of people who just don't follow the rules that she's used to)
Also, think about Everett's interaction to everyone; at one point he basically said to Rodney, "Dear? Do you have the vapours? Do you need to lie down?"
Really, every interaction they have with the SGC is facinating for the ways it's so different from on Atlantis, from the almost immediate drop of women-in-the-background, to the way they divide tables by soldiers v. scientists (instead of mixing like they do at Atlantis), to the color-tones of the sets. In fact The Rising was all slightly desaturated and greyish, until they hit Atlantis, where it became all dark colors and more dark colors with painful whites until the city rose from the waves with a crash like the sun rising from the ocean.
Re: Watch out for the twaddle here.
I think the reason I'm so fond of this show is the light, the colours and the fact that it is a city. ooh! The stained glass windows everywhere!
Pretty!
Re: Watch out for the twaddle here.
::nods:: here's to hoping!
but...
See... this doesn't sit with me because in my head I am John, but I don't feel... fuck. Pru gave me a hurty headache and I can't articulate this. Suffice it to say I'm feeling no offense here or anything.
Re: but...
...I think...I think I see myself as Atlantis|(John|Rodney), if that makes any sense...o.0
no subject
Also.
fjsdljfsld Okay. You - youuuuuuuuuuuu. You need to stop hooking me on new fandoms (Saiyuki, PotC, OUATIM which I *still* need to see but the fishhook of which is *firmly* caught under my ribs) and now this?????
jalfsd;jfs not cool hon. not cool (unless you show me where downloadable source is. *G*)
and, oh yeah, to topic? You make *somuch* sense. (And should I be scared that I Get It even though I've *not* seen source?)
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o.o wait, I hooked you into PotC and OUaTiM??? I thought it was only Saiyuki?
(and duuuude, SGA's become like the fandom black hole. Resistence is Futile)
good resource:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/svmadelyn/267864.html
http://www.livejournal.com/community/newbieguide/9140.html
o.0 it makes sense without watching the source? yay!!
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I actually like girl!John fic. I've *written* (but not posted) it. What I don't like is how Being a Woman is represented in that sort of fic, with the staplepoint of the lecherous man (usually Rodney)/pretty girl and the complete lack of consideration for the fact that having sex as a woman is completely fucking scary.
I mean, I love sex, I really, really love sex, but the risks for a woman and the likelihood for pain are so, so much higher than for a man. A man can't have the birth control fail and get pregnant, but John, as a woman, can and he's smart enough to realize that when his body forces him to. Not that anyone ever writes that.
To say nothing of the so-called "invisible" sexism, or the exact sort of male priviledge
*That's* what I want to see in girl!John fic. Just a recognition of what
- Andrea.
no subject
In regards to girl!John fics...well.
1) in regards to bad!fic, for SGA I've found I've a lower tolerance for characters being OC than anywhere else, and not only for the main characters but for auxiliaries as well. I am speaking as a person who regularly reads Fanfiction.net and who has no problem reading the Eye of Argon, I usually don't mind bad!fic at all. In SGA I don't really want to read fics where it's a girl who just happens to be John.
2) in regards to the better fic, the fic-flaws that usually occur in those types of fic are those that discourage me from reading them. For instance, I don't really like female body-shame and drama. I'm female and I like my body and I find body-shame defeatist. Also I have a low tolerance for the lecherous man/pretty girl stereotype, even though I have few qualms about the lecherous man/pretty boy stereotype because it doesn't raise my hackles over the social issues.
3) in regards to good!fic, I don't want fic where John is disempowered in the way that you describe. Part of why I read slash is because it allows a view of relationships without the tricky feminist issues that are so hard to properly represent and balance. For instance, I *love* Elizabeth Weir; however I can't see her plausibly getting into a relaionship with any of her subordinates without there being major power issues. If Weir was a guy, this wouldn't be nearly so problematic an issue, even with the added possibility of homophobia. Girl!John, written plausibly, becomes a horrible cliche on the level of Lana Lang from Smallville.
I see the need that it probably should be written, and should have a chance to be written *well*, but I will never be able to read it because it destroys part of what initially drew me into SGA.
Sort of like:
a: You like fruit? Here's some apples!
b: But I like oranges.
a: But good apples are really good!
b: But are they tangy?
a: They're crunchy!
b: ::sweatdrop::
Nevertheless, that's mostly in regards to fic, meta I'm willing to read. It'll be especially interesting to read it against these series of anime genderbending fics that I love. =)
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And that's why I'm writing the meta, because I'd love for a story where it isn't disempowering while still addressing the issues of vulnerability. I think John as a woman would be stronger than John as a man because (she'd) he'd be forced into it, into making harder, scarier decisions and having to live with those consequences. That's what being a woman is to me: being as strong as you have to be. And in this society? That's pretty damn strong.
But! 5,000 words. *laughs* You'll get plenty of this later. And I know people who will read things that long too. Most of them have my LJ friended, figure that. *grins*
"I *love* Elizabeth Weir; however I can't see her plausibly getting into a relaionship with any of her subordinates without there being major power issues. If Weir was a guy, this wouldn't be nearly so problematic an issue, even with the added possibility of homophobia."
See, I totally disagree with that. I think there'd be a much, much larger issue if Elizabeth was male and/or was military because there's a breach there, a threatening breach, a misconduct, that isn't present or as threatening as Elizabeth as is.
Because, lets face it, Elizabeth isn't appealing to these people on levels of her professionalism -- the professionalism she has, of course, and we do see her use. She's appealing to her team(s) on levels of her relatability and I don't think that'd be damaged by a relationship inside the expedition itself.
I mean, she was willing to bring Simon along, as her subordinate, mainly on qualification of her relationship with him (not that he wasn't qualified but that wasn't her motivation), and in the same sense I think she'd have little conflict over entering a relationship with a subordinate and I think the majority of the expedition would go with whatever tone she set.
One has to remember that they're in for the long haul, the big stay, that most of them will probably never be willing to give up the wonders of Atlantis for the pseudo-stability of Earth (and most of them are aware of how unstable Earth really was/is with the Goa'uld and the Replicators and now the Orii).
It's a war and it's a war zone but they're a city and they're in majority civilians. (And even with soldiers, look at how many soldiers leave widows and children.) Relationships, families, that sort of thing, isn't going to have the same sort of hierarchal issues as it would on Earth where people can leave the SGC and go back to the "real world" to live their lives for days or weeks at a time. Where sometimes the SGC is just a normal 9-to-5 job.
I do think it'd be a bigger issue if she was military for the obvious reasons that the military, save Sheppard, is still giving lip service to protocol. And I think it'd be a bigger issue if she was a man because there'd be more likelihood of the women becoming uncomfortable; men, as a whole, care about this sort of thing a whole lot less.
Of course, I'm into SGA for the plot so, you know, I'm screwed. Or maybe abstinent. *grins*
- Andrea.
no subject
What is problematic for John Sheppard is that part of his portrayal is as a ditz, and he flirts to get his way and calls on the emotions rather than the logical. In a way, he's often playing a 'defensive' game; all of this combined doesn't make him female, but these are all classically coded as more feminine traits. John Sheppard as a girl would end up sorta like the worst cliche of a sorority girl; because as a girl, Sheppard's canon characterization would be a bad stereotype.
And it's not like Sheppard hasn't been disregarded and underestimated before, but he's never been a walking cliche because he's male. Instead he's become an interesting and layered character, and not a stereotype.
And I think it'd be a bigger issue if she was a man because there'd be more likelihood of the women becoming uncomfortable; men, as a whole, care about this sort of thing a whole lot less.
::blinks:: Really?? o.o That honestly haven't been my experience, most of my female friends and aquaintances are more comfortable with the idea of bisexuality than most of my male friends and aquaintances, and I live in a liberal area.
And yes, she was willing to bring Simon along, but I think that would have been a total mistake. Look at the way she changes in those scenes with him, hopefully it wouldn't have affected how she was on Atlantis but I can't help remembering how Simon mentioned that she never used to be adventurous. And I'm not saying that Simon has the ability to change her that much, but just saying with the recognition of personal and third-party experience that being around people from your past tends to drop people back into their modes of interaction. For some people this is a good thing because it de-ages them; for others it's a bad thing because it de-matures them.
In the long run, once she's consolidated her authority more and once there's a larger non-science civilian population, yes perhaps then. But at the point of the series as it is now, I would find it difficult to believe. (However, I *do* see massive amounts of chemistry between her and Sheppard or Ronon.)
no subject
Men tend to be far less concerned with a woman sleeping with a man below her authority than woman are with a man sleeping with a woman below his authority, see? Because women, especially professional women like scientists and soldiers, tend to be far more aware of what might be thought of a woman who sleeps with her boss.
It's, and I hesitate to make the comparison but it holds here, somewhat like the rape issue. A man rapes a woman and it's a crime or, worse, men being men; a woman rapes a man and it's almost invariably seen by men as "He got lucky/laid!" A woman sleeps with her male subordinate and he's getting laid, a woman does and she's sleeping her way to the top.
That's where that doublestandard exists.
I'm still not sure where bisexuality comes in.
As for Elizabeth and Simon, what's actually said is this:
---
SIMON (interrupting): Elizabeth ... I'm not going.
WEIR: I don't understand.
SIMON: You're the adventurer, not me.
WEIR: But I'm not -- I mean at least I wasn't, not before. Look, the first time I stepped through that Gate, I was terrified. I knew I wasn't prepared for what I was getting into, but I took a chance.
---
Weir denies that she's an adventurer, though her career and her excitement at the Atlantis expedition from the very beginning says otherwise, and Simon, the person were lead to believe knows her best pre-Atlantis, claims she is an adventurer. Simon *doesn't* have the ability to change her, which is where their conflict holds in Intruder. Simon also wasn't that far in her past and, again, he holds that she was always adventurous like this.
I don't disagree that bringing Simon along would have been a bad, bad idea but that's because Simon never would have fit, not because of Elizabeth. She does change in those scenes with him though -- she relaxes in large part, the same way she did in Home. If he was up for it, or the sort of man to be up for it, I think he would have been an asset and enabled her to be more relaxed and less stressed when push and shove came at Atlantis the next time and the next time.
I'm also not really sure what the civilian population being science based -- and they will probably never have that much of a lesser science civilian population I would reason because they need scientists desperately -- has to do with it in your view. Would you be willing to explain?
And I don't find it difficult to believe as it is now, not with Elizabeth and Sheppard and McKay and Carson and all their relative lack of propriety. Teyla's the most adherent to social structure of all of them and that's mostly her personality. If any of the department heads we've seen were keeping with social structure or professionalism or, you know, even hierarchy beyond "If we're dept head you better damn well listen", then I'd probably feel differently.
Oh! And I almost forgot to reply to the Sheppard thing. I don't think that turning Sheppard female makes him a walking cliche because he's more than a ditz or a flirt, etc, and those are the traits that I think would be brought closest to the surface if he was put into the position of dealing with being female.
- Andrea.
no subject
Oh! I was misunderstanding you then, apologies!
As for the statement above, I dunno. It feels off to me, partially through listening to guys trash-talking the professors they potentially would sleep with; it might be a false impression on my part. And it's less that women might be aware of what other people think of a female boss sleeping around than what people in general thinks of women sleeping around, especially with men who are subordinates. And I so wish that wasn't the case...which is part of why I find slash is so lovely, 'cause it skirts the some of the hairier issues of the unequal gender relations in a couple.
As for Simon, like I've said before, I don't think that he, personally, changes her. However, I think she changes around him in a not necessarily producitive way. It's interesting, I think, in general how early S2 is very similar to early S1, as if being back on Earth pulled them back into old patterns/habits/reactions for awhile.
I'm also not really sure what the civilian population being science based -- and they will probably never have that much of a lesser science civilian population I would reason because they need scientists desperately -- has to do with it in your view. Would you be willing to explain?
The civilian population being less science-based was probably too much of a generalization on my part; in effect I was trying to imagine a position far enough from her chain of command that it wouldn't undermine her and yet would still be somewhat equal to her or at least not feel threatened. There really aren't any merchants yet on Atlantis, though maybe something off-world.
Hmmm, you may be right about the relative lack of formalities/propriety. And an accurate nuanced fic could be written, but it would be a tricky line...I would actually, not mind it so much if say there was an AU with her paired with Sheppard or McKay coming to Atlantis eventually as a merchant or maybe a leader of one of the groups that they meet.
I know Sheppard is more than just a ditz. However his modus operandi to the world at large generally appears as such, only he doesn't get flack for it because he's male. Usually Sheppard only lets the other side through in a danger situation...however as a girl he's going to have to let it through more and more, 'closer to the surface'. This means that Sheppard as a girl is constantly put on alert, as if he's constantly in a danger situation. All because he changed into a girl.
I don't want to equate being female and feminine as a danger situation, because there's enough of that going around naturally. I like being a girl for the most part, and I don't want to see Sheppard forced to be constantly on guard because of a transformation that should be *fun*. And not that I don't realize that there's negative aspects to being a girl too, but it would be like bringing a friend to see your beloved hometown but dropping them off at night in the ghettos. The friend would get a better understanding of the city, but it's an awful thing to do and I don't want my hometown to be represented like that.
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rewritten -
I would, actually, not mind it so much if say there was an AU with her paired with Sheppard or McKay; with one of them coming to Atlantis eventually as a merchant or maybe a leader of one of the groups that they meet.
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- Andrea.
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I never mentioned, to my knowledge, Elizabeth sleeping around, just possibly sleeping with one of her subordinates. So, I was wondering where you made the jump? Did I accidentally say it? *laughs*
- Andrea.
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I read your second paragraph and began to wonder: Do you really think Sheppard, if changed into a girl, wouldn't simply adjust his behaviour? I know he relies on his charm and intuitive approach far more than any male action hero we've seen, which is most excellent, but at the same time, we haven't ever seen him stumped in a situation that required aggressive leadership or, hell, aggression itself -- see The Storm/The Eye, for example, where he kills dozens of people without breaking much of a sweat.
If anything, Sheppard's portrayal has shown that he's a flexible guy -- he's attentive with the girls without ever coming onto them, he's the football-lovin' buddy with the guys. He's a slacker/surfer/sci-fi geek, he's the ranking military commander on Atlantis. He's had sparkage with Teyla in the beginning and Chaya in the middle, he's given off powerfully strong slash vibes with our dear Rodney.
Catch my drift? If anything, Sheppard's a bit of a Lebenskünstler (http://www.stevegrams.com/lebenskunstler.htm) who doesn't need much (see him being happy in freakin' *Antarctica*) but will adapt to circumstances; if he sets his mind to it, he can do pretty much anything -- he's not lacking either smarts, authority, or self-awareness, after all.
So long story...well, still long-ish, for me, it's impossible to see John *not* change his behaviour as a girl according to the situation and its demands; I get your reservations but don't think they would even be touched upon in a genderswitch setting.
no subject
I think he would adjust his behavior, which I explained towards the end of the comment here how I find that problematic for me (personally speaking only) to read. Also there would be the initial reactions towards John-as-girl in the first place.
If anything, Sheppard's portrayal has shown that he's a flexible guy
::nodnodnod:: partly though, I think it's the fact that he has chemistry with anything on two legs, and some inanimate objects too...and yes, Sheppard does take advantage of life as best he can. The thing is, I don't think he's *fully* a Lebenskünstler, there's lines that he definately won't cross, a lot of which has to do with how he's emotionally distant.
So yes, I think John can adapt because he's an adaptable kinda guy; the mental place that adaptation will necessarily take John (in a fully developed genderswap fic) is not a place that I would voluntarily go, even as I could see perhaps the necessity of it being written.
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Ah, yeah. When you say "however as a girl he's going to have to let it through more and more, 'closer to the surface'. This means that Sheppard as a girl is constantly put on alert, as if he's constantly in a danger situation. All because he changed into a girl." I'll agree -- with the reservation that the intensity of what I'd call heightened awareness would lessen over time, reach the level normal for any strong woman. The fact that he'll never be accepted as effortlessly as he would be as a guy -- well, that's reality, and exactly the sort of reality that needs to be changed, in my opinion -- genderswitch in fiction and the media in general can only help to raise awareness, methinks.
...not that I read and write it because of such lofty concepts alone: I simply think it's fascinating, intellectually *and* emotionally.
Hee. Fair enough, yes.
Yes, you're right; he's holding back, reigning himself in, hiding parts of who and what he is. That's why he's only a bit of a Lebenskünstler. & ;-)
On the same page here, yes -- any genderswitch *not* written as crack!fic would have to walk John through the valley of the shadow of...all sorts of issues, from the ones in the military to your ordinary societal bias to his very own beliefs.
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- Andrea.
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and OMG! Ronon in a skirt. Yes. Please.
My random thoughts: For awhile I was thinking about writing a fic with a female Rodney just because I think it would be a big deal for him to sort of go through the realization that he might have been afraid and felt vunerable in his male body, but that is worse in a female body. If say, you ignore conservation of mass, going from a 5'10-5'11 guy who is built like a bit like a line backer to a say, 5'6 women who is not, that would be pretty damn scary.
I think you would start rethinking a lot of your attitudes about the people around you and how men approach women. I think it would be a bigger deal for John, much like Lier said, but Rodney would be the easier one to play with, for me. I think that making him feel more vunerable would make him lash out to an even higher degree than he does now.
So I guess my point is, Rodney as a woman...would be fucking scary. And I'd love it. Though not on the show of course, because Hewlett! It would interesting as a temp. thing like The Rover Series thing. *waves hand*
Then I realized I would be writing het so I gave up. Plus, I don't know how far into exploring how vunerable I feel. *makes face*
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::nods::
So I guess my point is, Rodney as a woman...would be fucking scary.
=D Go read
Plus, I don't know how far into exploring how vunerable I feel. *makes face*
::nodnodnod:: I like genderfuck stories to be fun 'cause it's like introducing guys to my hometown and it's supposed to be fun, y'know? With some characters it's easier to make it fun than others. =)
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Right, angst tends to make me tired and unhappy and I do not read fic for this reason. Which is why spaggel is the most brillant.
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Upon thought: what do ya'll think of SGA's flipping of roles with Teyla and Ronon? Not that they're not both eye-candy, but for some reason I'm getting the eye-candy warrior-chick vibe more from Ronon than Teyla. And Teyla projects the stoic, strong village leader that you usually see with a male character.
Ordinarily the archetypes would call for a male tragic hero with a plucky side-kick girl who might or might not be the source of brute force (magical!girl) who wears skimpy outfits and gets one-liners...
...This makes me want to see Ronon in a leather skirt.
Ronon in a leather skirt would pretty much be Xena, with Teyla as Gabrielle.
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...This makes me want to see Ronon in a leather skirt.
Hee. Coming right up...as soon as
'Cause ya'll know that would be hawt.
Hmm, okay, maybe you *should* read what we got so far...
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::grins and bows::
=) I'll take a peek at it?
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It goes into the comments, then -- we are currently re-writing and structuring it all, with extra scenes and...oh dear. Yes.
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I don't know if I'd see John as a girl as necessarily regressive, but I can't deny that John would learn some hard lessons about interracting in an overwhelmingly male-dominated arena (ie. the military) as a female. And he'd learn pretty quickly that his favourite defense of playing the ditz (when asked to explain the concept of the Virgin Mary "Did I mention I like ferris wheels?") won't work the same way. Oh, it'll work in teh way of distracting people and being underestimated, but there'll be no respect underlying that.
Hmmm. Meanwhile, it also shows why I love Elizabeth's lack of bedside manner. I almost cheered the fact that while she is the Female Leader, meant to Negotiate Peace and leave the fighting to the boys (which she didn't in the Seige, and I loved that too), she's not automatically touchy-feely.
As for the sleeping with a boss thing... hmmm. I don't know. I mean, I come from SOrkin fandoms (The West Wing, Sports Night) where the sexism is subtle but somewhat ingrained into certain characters. And I don't know. The whole idea of Donna-dating-her-male-boss comes with a pile of "but it would be inappropriate" noises from fandom (regardless of the chemistry between the characters). When it comes to Casey-dating-his-female-boss, those issues are never raised. I don't know how much dating someone under her command would be seen as a bad thing...
...and I don't know if that's because, as a female civilian requiring information/advice from the male scientist and the male military guys, she isn't seen as having a lot of objective power (possibly even objective *thought*, according to some fannish discussions I've had) in the first place. Hence, her dating one of them wouldn't make much of a difference.
I'd rather believe it's because Elizabeth has always had far, far more professionalism than John or Rodney (possibly not Caldwell -- which could be why the idea of Weir/Caldwell is interesting) and could keep professional concerns seperated from personal desires.
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::nods:: and it's like I explained in an earlier comment to
...and I don't know if that's because, as a female civilian requiring information/advice from the male scientist and the male military guys, she isn't seen as having a lot of objective power (possibly even objective *thought*, according to some fannish discussions I've had) in the first place. Hence, her dating one of them wouldn't make much of a difference.
::blinks:: huh. I would've thought that it'd make *more* difference. I must chew on this idea for awhile...
I'd rather believe it's because Elizabeth has always had far, far more professionalism than John or Rodney (possibly not Caldwell -- which could be why the idea of Weir/Caldwell is interesting) and could keep professional concerns seperated from personal desires.
::nods:: hear hear!