Oh. My. God.

[permetaform]

So I meant to meta about Ford today and post my drabble from bascon on him, but like, see...

I'm remembering lierdumoa's Genderbending meta, specifically how:

If John were a woman, fandom would make assumptions about him that we don't make because he is not a woman. Or rather, the fandom would conclude that the writers were making assumptions about "women in general" in writing John. Offensive assumptions. The fact that John is a man is, well, interesting. I honestly believe John is the product of a bunch of male geeks getting in a room and trying to envision the perfect man and, being heterosexual, instead envisioning the perfect woman and then giving her a cock. I'd call it subversive if I weren't so sure the writers were doing it completely on accident.

I mean, think about it. If it were on purpose? So subversive.

_{Which, incidentally, is why Girl!John makes me (on a personal level) cringe because it's like taking an empowered woman and then just stripping all of it away again to corset her or to bind her feet or to snip off her clit and just...I can take most darkfic, but this type of darkfic just brings up so much rage that I just don't go near it to remain zen.}

MEANWHILE.

Rodney. And Cadman.

Season 2; Episode 4: Duet. (and I'm leaving this un-cut 'cause there's no way to truly spoil you for this episode, it has to be SEEN to be truly appreciated)

Tomboy girl in the guy's body. ::FLAILS::...dude, it's like what lierdumoa was saying about John Sheppard made literal. Cadman even played Capt. Kirk for Katie Brown! XD _{(and did the flirty thing and did the hip-cocking...)}

I don't even know if they're doing this on purpose but...are they seeing what they're writing? That's just so *cool*, and it only escaped my notice because I was so used to seeing this from fic.


[edit] On hindsight, my babble wasn't very clear. (wah, happens often. ::headdesks::)

Elaboration--

Summary of lierdumoa's point: John Sheppard, if the writers *meant* to write him as a girl with a cock (read her post for the reasoning and elaboration), is subversive because he's a male action-hero with female characteristics. Usually that would be labeled gay and thus prevented from being produced as an action-adventure show, but they've managed it in SGA. Also, it's sort of like giving a female character the male lead, but removing all the social knee-jerk reactions to the visual *image* of a female as a leading character.

_{My aside to lierdumoa's point:} it disturbes me (in regards to my own issues and etc) to think of Sheppard as a girl because it's like finally finding feminine equality only to lose it again, because I find Sheppard as a point of identification. Through him, as a girl, there's is a vicarious sense of, well...equality, of being able to flirt and whatever and have it be socially sanctioned. So John-as-a-girl fics seem temporally-regressive to me (ie. as if he was from some future, more progressive era, moving back to when women had less independance/control), and it removes some of the nuances that drew me into the character. (ie. the fact that it is easier for him to be just 'one of the guys' than it is for, say, Teyla)

My Main Point: Cadman in 'Duet', being in Rodney's body, made literal the idea of the tomboy in a man's body (which in the character of John Sheppard is made subtext); basically a girl with male priviledges. Perhaps the writers wrote John Sheppard as an idealized-female-with-a-cock on *purpose*; then the Cadman/Rodney dynamic in 'Duet' only is a further indication of the show's writers' awareness of SGA's genderplay.

[edit2] Upon thought: what do ya'll think of SGA's flipping of roles with Teyla and Ronon? Not that they're not both eye-candy, but for some reason I'm getting the eye-candy warrior-chick vibe more from Ronon than Teyla. And Teyla projects the stoic, strong village leader that you usually see with a male character.

Ordinarily the archetypes would call for a male tragic hero with a plucky side-kick girl who might or might not be the source of brute force (magical!girl) who wears skimpy outfits and gets one-liners...

...This makes me want to see Ronon in a leather skirt.

'Cause ya'll know that would be hawt.

[edit3] This post brought to you by mental wanderings caused by cereta's Fandom and Male Privilege post

[edit4] FYI, my personal fannish background: my first (het) fandom was Ranma 1/2, where a guy changes into a girl whenever splashed with cold water. I returned to this fandom later after I've discovered the joys of m/m. =)

Comments

[permetaform]

er...I think you might be misunderstanding me. I don't think being female is disempowering on it's own. I started out in a fandom that regularly genderbends as part of its canon, and I don't like female-body-shame.

What is problematic for John Sheppard is that part of his portrayal is as a ditz, and he flirts to get his way and calls on the emotions rather than the logical. In a way, he's often playing a 'defensive' game; all of this combined doesn't make him female, but these are all classically coded as more feminine traits. John Sheppard as a girl would end up sorta like the worst cliche of a sorority girl; because as a girl, Sheppard's canon characterization would be a bad stereotype.

And it's not like Sheppard hasn't been disregarded and underestimated before, but he's never been a walking cliche because he's male. Instead he's become an interesting and layered character, and not a stereotype.


And I think it'd be a bigger issue if she was a man because there'd be more likelihood of the women becoming uncomfortable; men, as a whole, care about this sort of thing a whole lot less.

::blinks:: Really?? o.o That honestly haven't been my experience, most of my female friends and aquaintances are more comfortable with the idea of bisexuality than most of my male friends and aquaintances, and I live in a liberal area.

And yes, she was willing to bring Simon along, but I think that would have been a total mistake. Look at the way she changes in those scenes with him, hopefully it wouldn't have affected how she was on Atlantis but I can't help remembering how Simon mentioned that she never used to be adventurous. And I'm not saying that Simon has the ability to change her that much, but just saying with the recognition of personal and third-party experience that being around people from your past tends to drop people back into their modes of interaction. For some people this is a good thing because it de-ages them; for others it's a bad thing because it de-matures them.

In the long run, once she's consolidated her authority more and once there's a larger non-science civilian population, yes perhaps then. But at the point of the series as it is now, I would find it difficult to believe. (However, I *do* see massive amounts of chemistry between her and Sheppard or Ronon.)

[saeva.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm not sure where bisexuality and Elizabeth came into play. I meant that Elizabeth and her MALE subordinates.

Men tend to be far less concerned with a woman sleeping with a man below her authority than woman are with a man sleeping with a woman below his authority, see? Because women, especially professional women like scientists and soldiers, tend to be far more aware of what might be thought of a woman who sleeps with her boss.

It's, and I hesitate to make the comparison but it holds here, somewhat like the rape issue. A man rapes a woman and it's a crime or, worse, men being men; a woman rapes a man and it's almost invariably seen by men as "He got lucky/laid!" A woman sleeps with her male subordinate and he's getting laid, a woman does and she's sleeping her way to the top.

That's where that doublestandard exists.

I'm still not sure where bisexuality comes in.

As for Elizabeth and Simon, what's actually said is this:

---

SIMON (interrupting): Elizabeth ... I'm not going.

WEIR: I don't understand.

SIMON: You're the adventurer, not me.

WEIR: But I'm not -- I mean at least I wasn't, not before. Look, the first time I stepped through that Gate, I was terrified. I knew I wasn't prepared for what I was getting into, but I took a chance.

---

Weir denies that she's an adventurer, though her career and her excitement at the Atlantis expedition from the very beginning says otherwise, and Simon, the person were lead to believe knows her best pre-Atlantis, claims she is an adventurer. Simon *doesn't* have the ability to change her, which is where their conflict holds in Intruder. Simon also wasn't that far in her past and, again, he holds that she was always adventurous like this.

I don't disagree that bringing Simon along would have been a bad, bad idea but that's because Simon never would have fit, not because of Elizabeth. She does change in those scenes with him though -- she relaxes in large part, the same way she did in Home. If he was up for it, or the sort of man to be up for it, I think he would have been an asset and enabled her to be more relaxed and less stressed when push and shove came at Atlantis the next time and the next time.

I'm also not really sure what the civilian population being science based -- and they will probably never have that much of a lesser science civilian population I would reason because they need scientists desperately -- has to do with it in your view. Would you be willing to explain?

And I don't find it difficult to believe as it is now, not with Elizabeth and Sheppard and McKay and Carson and all their relative lack of propriety. Teyla's the most adherent to social structure of all of them and that's mostly her personality. If any of the department heads we've seen were keeping with social structure or professionalism or, you know, even hierarchy beyond "If we're dept head you better damn well listen", then I'd probably feel differently.

Oh! And I almost forgot to reply to the Sheppard thing. I don't think that turning Sheppard female makes him a walking cliche because he's more than a ditz or a flirt, etc, and those are the traits that I think would be brought closest to the surface if he was put into the position of dealing with being female.

- Andrea.

[permetaform]

Men tend to be far less concerned with a woman sleeping with a man below her authority than woman are with a man sleeping with a woman below his authority, see? Because women, especially professional women like scientists and soldiers, tend to be far more aware of what might be thought of a woman who sleeps with her boss.

Oh! I was misunderstanding you then, apologies!

As for the statement above, I dunno. It feels off to me, partially through listening to guys trash-talking the professors they potentially would sleep with; it might be a false impression on my part. And it's less that women might be aware of what other people think of a female boss sleeping around than what people in general thinks of women sleeping around, especially with men who are subordinates. And I so wish that wasn't the case...which is part of why I find slash is so lovely, 'cause it skirts the some of the hairier issues of the unequal gender relations in a couple.

As for Simon, like I've said before, I don't think that he, personally, changes her. However, I think she changes around him in a not necessarily producitive way. It's interesting, I think, in general how early S2 is very similar to early S1, as if being back on Earth pulled them back into old patterns/habits/reactions for awhile.


I'm also not really sure what the civilian population being science based -- and they will probably never have that much of a lesser science civilian population I would reason because they need scientists desperately -- has to do with it in your view. Would you be willing to explain?

The civilian population being less science-based was probably too much of a generalization on my part; in effect I was trying to imagine a position far enough from her chain of command that it wouldn't undermine her and yet would still be somewhat equal to her or at least not feel threatened. There really aren't any merchants yet on Atlantis, though maybe something off-world.

Hmmm, you may be right about the relative lack of formalities/propriety. And an accurate nuanced fic could be written, but it would be a tricky line...I would actually, not mind it so much if say there was an AU with her paired with Sheppard or McKay coming to Atlantis eventually as a merchant or maybe a leader of one of the groups that they meet.

I know Sheppard is more than just a ditz. However his modus operandi to the world at large generally appears as such, only he doesn't get flack for it because he's male. Usually Sheppard only lets the other side through in a danger situation...however as a girl he's going to have to let it through more and more, 'closer to the surface'. This means that Sheppard as a girl is constantly put on alert, as if he's constantly in a danger situation. All because he changed into a girl.

I don't want to equate being female and feminine as a danger situation, because there's enough of that going around naturally. I like being a girl for the most part, and I don't want to see Sheppard forced to be constantly on guard because of a transformation that should be *fun*. And not that I don't realize that there's negative aspects to being a girl too, but it would be like bringing a friend to see your beloved hometown but dropping them off at night in the ghettos. The friend would get a better understanding of the city, but it's an awful thing to do and I don't want my hometown to be represented like that.

[permetaform]

* argh, I need to proofread more:

rewritten -
I would, actually, not mind it so much if say there was an AU with her paired with Sheppard or McKay; with one of them coming to Atlantis eventually as a merchant or maybe a leader of one of the groups that they meet.

[saeva.livejournal.com]

I'm a little confused at where I posited Elizabeth would sleep around?

- Andrea.

[permetaform]

::blinks:: huh?

[saeva.livejournal.com]

"And it's less that women might be aware of what other people think of a female boss sleeping around than what people in general thinks of women sleeping around, especially with men who are subordinates."

I never mentioned, to my knowledge, Elizabeth sleeping around, just possibly sleeping with one of her subordinates. So, I was wondering where you made the jump? Did I accidentally say it? *laughs*

- Andrea.

[permetaform]

ohhh! Yeah, sorry, miscommunication there again. I was referring more to the appearance of Weir dating rather than the actual fact of what she might do. The appearance she'd have to maintain versus the reality of what would jive with her personality.

[permetaform]

I didn't say you did. ::highly confused::

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Sorry for barging in here; feel free to ignore this.

I read your second paragraph and began to wonder: Do you really think Sheppard, if changed into a girl, wouldn't simply adjust his behaviour? I know he relies on his charm and intuitive approach far more than any male action hero we've seen, which is most excellent, but at the same time, we haven't ever seen him stumped in a situation that required aggressive leadership or, hell, aggression itself -- see The Storm/The Eye, for example, where he kills dozens of people without breaking much of a sweat.

If anything, Sheppard's portrayal has shown that he's a flexible guy -- he's attentive with the girls without ever coming onto them, he's the football-lovin' buddy with the guys. He's a slacker/surfer/sci-fi geek, he's the ranking military commander on Atlantis. He's had sparkage with Teyla in the beginning and Chaya in the middle, he's given off powerfully strong slash vibes with our dear Rodney.

Catch my drift? If anything, Sheppard's a bit of a Lebenskünstler (http://www.stevegrams.com/lebenskunstler.htm) who doesn't need much (see him being happy in freakin' *Antarctica*) but will adapt to circumstances; if he sets his mind to it, he can do pretty much anything -- he's not lacking either smarts, authority, or self-awareness, after all.

So long story...well, still long-ish, for me, it's impossible to see John *not* change his behaviour as a girl according to the situation and its demands; I get your reservations but don't think they would even be touched upon in a genderswitch setting.

[permetaform]

Do you really think Sheppard, if changed into a girl, wouldn't simply adjust his behaviour?

I think he would adjust his behavior, which I explained towards the end of the comment here how I find that problematic for me (personally speaking only) to read. Also there would be the initial reactions towards John-as-girl in the first place.


If anything, Sheppard's portrayal has shown that he's a flexible guy

::nodnodnod:: partly though, I think it's the fact that he has chemistry with anything on two legs, and some inanimate objects too...and yes, Sheppard does take advantage of life as best he can. The thing is, I don't think he's *fully* a Lebenskünstler, there's lines that he definately won't cross, a lot of which has to do with how he's emotionally distant.

So yes, I think John can adapt because he's an adaptable kinda guy; the mental place that adaptation will necessarily take John (in a fully developed genderswap fic) is not a place that I would voluntarily go, even as I could see perhaps the necessity of it being written.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

I think he would adjust his behavior, which I explained towards the end of the comment here

Ah, yeah. When you say "however as a girl he's going to have to let it through more and more, 'closer to the surface'. This means that Sheppard as a girl is constantly put on alert, as if he's constantly in a danger situation. All because he changed into a girl." I'll agree -- with the reservation that the intensity of what I'd call heightened awareness would lessen over time, reach the level normal for any strong woman. The fact that he'll never be accepted as effortlessly as he would be as a guy -- well, that's reality, and exactly the sort of reality that needs to be changed, in my opinion -- genderswitch in fiction and the media in general can only help to raise awareness, methinks.

...not that I read and write it because of such lofty concepts alone: I simply think it's fascinating, intellectually *and* emotionally.

::nodnodnod:: partly though, I think it's the fact that he has chemistry with anything on two legs, and some inanimate objects too...

Hee. Fair enough, yes.

there's lines that he definately won't cross, a lot of which has to do with how he's emotionally distant.

Yes, you're right; he's holding back, reigning himself in, hiding parts of who and what he is. That's why he's only a bit of a Lebenskünstler. & ;-)

the mental place that adaptation will necessarily take John (in a fully developed genderswap fic) is not a place that I would voluntarily go, even as I could see perhaps the necessity of it being written.

On the same page here, yes -- any genderswitch *not* written as crack!fic would have to walk John through the valley of the shadow of...all sorts of issues, from the ones in the military to your ordinary societal bias to his very own beliefs.