Conclusions in The Great Will Debate...

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The original Debate thread

In process of being discussed/updated...erm, and contains Elizabeth and Jack musings too...

last updated around 10:30, PLEASE point out redundancies and points of disagreements...(ie, the questionmark next to Will's confidence,..)



Agreements:

Will in a fantasy world
Will has a strong childside
Will as a computer geek
Will is competent in his field of knowledge
Will's field of knowledge is a bit limited at times
Will being a dumbass sometimes
Will being young
Will growing up throughout the movie
Will is illiterate
Will's confidence(?)
Elizabeth is ruthless
Elizabeth is pirate-y
Elizabeth is adaptable in pirate situations
Elizabeth is a romantic
Jack is on Jack's side
Jack doesn't like to get his own hands dirty
Will is able to learn
Will is sheltered emotionally
Will realizes Undead Pirate
Will is rash
Will is emotionally suppressed by the established hierarchy.



Differences:

How rash IS Will?
Degree of Will's suppression by the established hierarchy
Piracy-Justifiable in the end? (would matter towards Will's view of pirates at the end)
Degree of growth in the movie
Will's competency
Will's confidence(?)
Will has logic/common sense


Trigger Paradoxes:

definition: an action that would definitively prove a characterization one way or another that is non-canon; ie. if Jack pulled the Trigger and shot Will in the smithy.

Shooting Will, y or n?
Will telling Elizabeth (in cave) he loves her
Elizabeth knowing that Jack is a pirate when she first wakes up
Will being nicely dressed at Jack's hanging


Sequel theories:

Elizabeth turning evil



Note: ok, I HAVE to study for my math final (::kicks linear algerbra books::), so I'm AWOL until about...4 pm (Pacific)? that should give jaida and cali time to come back from lunch and get settled.

In the meanwhile, feel free to leave your thoughts on the matter.

Comments

[ladyjaida.livejournal.com]

And it's rather impossible to predict whether or not their romance would actually make it. Yes, they've had their catalyst of their little pirating adventure, and yes, Will's always had a puppy crush on Elizabeth, and yes, Elizabeth is always quite fond of Will, but can they make it work?

Again, I am huge on the agreeing with this statement of yours. (I like you. You rock.) Because I always thought that Elizabeth only started to return romantic affections once Will displayed the "pirate" side of himself, because the circumstances called for him to. Once they are no longer in those circumstances, however, will Elizabeth continue to be attracted to him romantically? Or will she realize she only loved the pirate in him enough to kiss him -- kissing him, you realize, once he sprung Jack from the hangman's noose! obviously was very excited by that piratical behavior -- while really, she just loves him as a friend and/or kid brother?

I am so glad you don't feel the Jack/Will vibe. Because I just really don't feel it, either. I went in to that movie theatre for the first time waiting, wanting, wishing to slash the Jack and the Will and came out of it feeling nothing, absolutely nothing, in terms of chemistry from them. Slowly but surely I am able now to see the occasional scenario between them working out, but on the whole it so doesn't do it for me. At all. There's no chemistry at all, as I said before, no heat and no passion and obviously no attraction on either end (though I think the whole "Will reminds me of Bootstrap!" bit should be explored and exploited far more than it already has been).

[permetaform]

More kudo's to everyone for this Elizabeth/Will explaination, they're everything I wanted to say too. In reference to the Jack/Will...yea, I'm going to right another entry because it'll probably end up a bit long.

[permetaform]

right

awww fucking 'ell. I can't BELIEVE I made such a stupid spelling mistake.

...I need more sleep.

And less sugar.

[ash-night.livejournal.com]

"(I like you. You rock.)"

YAY! *hugs ladyjaida*

"(though I think the whole "Will reminds me of Bootstrap!" bit should be explored and exploited far more than it already has been)."

Ahh... Bootstrap. Bootstrap is a trickey one. But, if Jack and Bill were actually romantically involved, why in the world would Jack have Barbosa as his trusted first mate? That's the thorn in my side whenever I read Jack and Bootstrap paired off together.

Jack himself only mentions or refers to Bill a handful of times. In the smithy fight scene, prison, tavern and on the ship. And it seems to me that Jack's and Will's conversation about Bill just ended right there with no other elaborations or explanations for the rest of the ship. I could see Jack just telling Will the barebones of the story and just leaving him hanging while Will goes deal with this new epiphany of his.

Whenever we deal with Bootstrap, we also have to ask just how deep was Jack's relationship with him? My impression was that Jack knew enough of Bootstrap perhaps as friend and a long time acquantence, but they may not have necessarily been the best of buds.

To me, Jack had far more of a relationship with Barbosa (who I think by the way is a bloody fascinating character.) How did Barbosa, that creepy backstabbing scumbag, become first mate on the Black Pearl? The scenes in which Jack and Barbosa share are interesting. Because Jack, unless he has the upperhand, is almost deathly serious. And perhaps I'm analyzing it too much, but when Barbosa mentioned how Jack's pacifism got him mutinied, it signaled to me that perhaps Barbosa was a sort of father-figure to Jack. Barbosa certainly is old enough to take on a father like role.

Yes, I know. That's me. The Barbosa Father Figure Theory... as a opposed to the opposite camp of: The Bootstrap Father Figure Theory. Although, both should probably be termed hypotheses rather than theories.

And I think one of the most memorable moments in the movie (excuse the unintentional alliteration) was when Jack shot Barbosa. And you could see that expression on his face. Not of hatred, anger or rage. But it certainly had a resolveful intensity and conviction. I'm trying to think of a moment that this could be equivalent to, but I can't.

[ladyjaida.livejournal.com]

You do! You rock. I shall let calichan field the bit about Bootstrap because she is far more qualified to do so. And she shall also do so far better than ever I could.

That being said, BarbossaxJack is a special little kink of mine, because I feel there is so much left unsaid about their past relationships. ( Have a theory that Barbossa was jealous of Bill and in order to combat that jealousy, once Jack realized it, he gave Barbossa the position of First Mate because he knew Bill wouldn't worry as to his place in Jack's life. ) Definitely love the BarbossaxJack. Definitely need to do something with it.

[ash-night.livejournal.com]

Ahh... I have a love of Barbosa.

There needs to be more fics dedicated to him. The backstory that needs to be resolved through fanfiction in this fandom in almost infinite! I could list a thousand questions that can be tackled in ficlet form one way or another...

But back to Barbosa. I'm not positive if I would slash Barbosa together with Jack... but I'm rather neutral on the topic. I definately see Barbosa as the father-figure. And if you throw in the: Jack was Raised into Piracy Theory, you could perhaps incorporate a scenario in which Barbosa was Jack's father's lover. And while Barbosa would never betray John (current leading name of Jack's pirate captain father if there was one by a statistic of two) Sparrow, Barbosa may not have had qualms with betraying Jack, because Jack is obviously the son of his mother and we all know how the birds and the bees function. Or something along the lines of that... that just spews off into speculation after speculation.

But yes. I love Barbosa. And I love his green apples. Gee, that sounds perverted. Barbosa is probably on the top three favorite characters of mine along with Jack and Elizabeth. (Will is a bit too... generic? for me.)

yeah, I know it's not 4pm but I NEED a break...

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BarbossaxJack?

ooo, yes please? again interesting dynamic there, especially with Jack's body language around Barbossa which half the time is closed in on itself. And of course the posturing and one upping and some such.

Also, was it just me, or did Barbossa cackle *merrily* when chasing Jack in the scene? Ok, true it might be just the actors having a ball, but Barbossa didn't mind fighting Jack "until the trumpet sound". Best enemies, yes.

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

I really do feel like there is a great understanding between Barbossa and Jack, that they play off each other perfectly, that Barbossa is one of the few people who can challange Jack cerebrally. They have a beautiful rapport, now soured by their falling out, but they clearly know each other very well and on the matter of "However, for some reason I see them now almost pranking each other on the ship, or at least getting into MAJOR one-upsmanship competitions," I think they probably did that all the time. There's not much to do on a ship, you know, on the open ocean for weeks, besides bicker with your friends, or friendly rivals. When Jack and Barbossa are debating over the table they seem, to me, to be playing a game of 'who can keep cool the longest', they're both using a lot of physically intimidating body language while they trade volleys of words, and both trying to out-impose one another. I love their dynamic, it's just fabulous. I can see those games being played much more innocuously before they had a parting of ways, and I think they really enjoy each others company, in terms of the mental stimulation it provides.

[cytherean.livejournal.com]

*nervously sneaks forward*

( Have a theory that Barbossa was jealous of Bill and in order to combat that jealousy, once Jack realized it, he gave Barbossa the position of First Mate because he knew Bill wouldn't worry as to his place in Jack's life. )

Wow. I didn't know someone else had that theory too! Amazed and very, very gratified to see it written out. XD

Fascinated by debate and will post this before letting my brain register the fact that I am posting. Did that make sense?

*scuttles off*

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

Okay, the thing you have to understand about someone being the first mate of a ship is that their duty isn't just to assist the captain or play compliment to him, heck, that's the quartermaster. Their duty is to take over the ship if the captain dies. That's all. And in terms of having a first mate, the best idea isn't always to make it your best friend.

Sure, Bill might have been Jack's's most trusted friend. He might have been his lover. But the thing is, and this is just the way I write him in order to make it make sense knowing he was not the first mate or the quartermaster, say he was more talented on the side of the physical, of winning bouts of swordplay more than winning matches of chess, it would be rediculous to make him first mate of the ship. Sure, the Pearl would fall into the hands of someone that knew how much Jack cared for it, but if that person couldn't hatch the sort of schemes to keep the treasure coming in and the crew from being arrested her days on the water after Jack's death would be very, very short.

For my thoughts on Jack and Barboss and the mutiny, see this post: http://www.livejournal.com/users/musexmoirai/12241.html?thread=69585#t69585.

Barbossa as a first mate, however, makes total sense. The man is a splendid pirate. His rather nasty personality doesn't make him any less of a great tactician. I have no doubt he and Jack used to be pretty close, perhaps always in a "I nag you you nag me we're happy" way (even if they were buggering each other), but no doubt companionable enough in their time. I can't really see Barbossa ever being Jack's father figure, however, they're too much brotherly, or loverly, whichever way you want to color it, playing "Who's got the bigger dick" all the time.

Anyway, and this is the problem with a lot of Will/Jack fics, your first mate *isn't* always your best friend. Or your lover. Your first mate is the person best suited to take care of your ship and your crew if your head gets blown off. No less, if sometimes, perhaps, depending on the pair, something more. Sometimes there isn't a first mate on the ship, sometimes the quartermaster just takes over and runs the ship until a new captain can be voted into place. (This is how I feel Barbossa runs his ship, with Bo'sun as the quartermaster and no first mate, as there's no one else constantly at his side but Bo'sun, and Bo'sun takes over the running of the ship when the battle is over).

[permetaform]

yes! THANK YOU for mentioning the first mate thing. And I totally agree with you on the Barbossa/Jack dynamic, possibly one of the only reasons that Jack's "Your funeral." line actually stopped Barbossa from slitting Will's throat.

However, for some reason I see them now almost pranking each other on the ship, or at least getting into MAJOR one-upsmanship competitions.

[ash-night.livejournal.com]

"And I totally agree with you on the Barbossa/Jack dynamic, possibly one of the only reasons that Jack's "Your funeral." line actually stopped Barbossa from slitting Will's throat. "

That's brilliant. Damn. Now I need to somehow conspire my way into seeing the Pirate's movie again just to retest my flopping fish theory and try to gain another.

[ash-night.livejournal.com]

"Okay, the thing you have to understand about someone being the first mate of a ship is that their duty isn't just to assist the captain or play compliment to him, heck, that's the quartermaster. Their duty is to take over the ship if the captain dies. That's all. And in terms of having a first mate, the best idea isn't always to make it your best friend. "

Ahhh... Okay. Thankies very much. That clarifies a lot of ship ranking hierarchy mechanisms that I could never fathom or understand before. Hmm... In light of this new information, whether or not the Barbosa as a father figure theory will survive in my own mind is a bit uncertain. Let's let that one sizzle in the back of my mind for a few days.

Yes. I love your explanation of pre-marooning Black Pearl politics. Barbosa is definately able to be a fantastic pirate captain. Hehehe. *soft spot for Barbosa* (Loved the actor in Shakesepeare in Love.)

I agree with the last paragraph of your Jack's Mutiny explanation, but not quite so on the long paragraph before it. But I can't pin down why, unidentifiable personal preference maybe? It's the romantic in me, isn't it? The one that says: It'll be so beautiful if Jack inherited the Black Pearl from his family and blah blah blah blah blah.

Hmmm... That was an exceptional enlightening post! Thank you! Hehehe. Now I know the difference between a quartermaster and a first mate. :)

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

The quartermaster and captain have pretty much equal power, think of the quartermaster as the civil leader of the ship, he has final say in deciding punishments, and he's the one who divies up the loot and leads the landing parties. The captain is the military leader of the ship, he decides where they're going, what they're going after, and when the ship enters combat with another ship, the captain is the sole person in charge. This would be Barbossa and Bo'sun in the movie, or Jack and Gibbs, meanwhile AnaMaria is Jack's first mate (this is made clear in the junior novel but not in the movie itself).

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

Well, save that she clearly takes over the ship when Jack falls behind.

[ash-night.livejournal.com]

AnaMaria and Jack.

They have a lovely dynamic between them. I think I turned into sappy fan girl at the end of the movie in which AnaMaria gives Jack his jacket and says, "Captain Sparrow... the Black Pearl is yours."

There are *such* possibilities with the fandom!

[calicokat.livejournal.com]

I've already talked with Jaida about this a lot of times, so pretty much, at this point, I stand at the same place. We've definetly managed to write one little scenerio with Jack and Will, which turned out pretty cute, and fluffy... and involved intoxication. And the thing is, rule of thumb, if you can't slash them without booze, you're not really slashing them. Booze is the cop out in the world of ficcing, the easy, always-works way to slash all characters. (Okay, except Norrington and Will, that took a hurricane, alcohol, and a concussion, but that was the ultimate "These characters have no chemistry to speak of!" RP session between me and my friend Lizzie...).

Definetly agree on all the Will/Elizabeth points, although I think they could work as a couple for awhile, I think once Will discovers his hormones he'll be plenty experimental and flirty and like "Hello! I've got hormones! These are new!" and Elizabeth would no doubt be encouraging, and adventerous, sexually, so they'd at least likely kick off to an interesting physical relationship that would hopefully sustain them awhile in figuring out if they wanted to live together forever or not...