::eyeballs fandom:: SGA people, wtf.

[permetaform]

not that I'm really especially participating in fandom much, but...

Well, so I got caught up on SGA's Race wank, and well, what liviapenn's said on the subject, is pretty much spot on pure golden.

Now, I don't much like the type of discussion on racism that attempts to imbue shame onto "racists", because not only does that make people all defensive and reactionary liek whoa, but it also make "racists" the ones who commit racism.

And...the fact of the matter is that it's an issue of racism that exists in *people*, in *friends*, in people you *admire*; it's an issue of the racism that exists to some degree in each. person. because it *does*. Because we swim in it far too much (due to American media, that's tangled with worldwide media) and it's...it's *transparent* because you swim in it and is invisible to a very many people.

And I'm not going to hate people for being only human. I'm not going to shame people for something they cannot help.

However, I don't like people who aren't willing to self-examine when others are getting hurt at an act of theirs and it is being pointed out. I don't like how the sheer *possibility* that it's their own fault that they caused damage cannot pass through their mind, that they aren't willing to examine their own words and actions to see if these accusations are true.

Perhaps this is just my mental state as of now, with all the RL stuff going on for me. Perhaps this is me finally putting my foot down.

I'm defriending certain of you. Feel free to defriend me back.

[edit 1:11pm for grammar]

[edit 9:57pm] I've just come back from doing errands and ltlj's recent post was pointed out to me.

I sincerely apologize to ltlj for finding ill in her when there was none. I apologize for not following up and double-checking her own words before defriending. I apologize for the tone in my own comment. I was feeling betrayed at something that hadn't happened and acted far too quickly. Frankly, thank you for your ranty post.

I don't apologize for calling her a racist because in my post I called both everyone and no one a racist, because I believe that everybody has elements of racism in themselves to a degree. I do not level "that obscene hateful accusation" because I don't think it's useful in discussions of prejudice.

I haven't looked at the new comments in this post yet. I will do that now, time 10:10pm.

[edit 10:19pm] btw, I have re-added ltlj, and my current policy still stands that it's okay to either friend or defriend me at will.

[edit 10:33pm] ::facepalm:: edited my edit at 9:57pm to make it more concise and relevant.

[edit 9:22pm March 31st] in direct response here, but pertinent to the post in general:

Well, I have to admit that I was flustered and upset at myself for making such a mistake, and I was defending myself, so yes I was defensive.

What I have wished for of trolls is that they would just stop responding, to stop making an ass of themselves and to stop escalating the grief, so I will do so.

I am sorry.

Comments

[permetaform]

::points at post::

However, I don't like people who aren't willing to self-examine when others are getting hurt at an act of theirs and it is being pointed out.

[jessant.livejournal.com]

Wow. Get off your high horse. Maybe you need to self-examine. I'm in fandom for people like Itlj who write superb fiction, now *you* I can't remember anything you've ever written. Thanks for leveling accusations at people you don't even know and making them want to leave fandom. Cause being judgmental asshats is what fandom is all about, not you know sharing fiction, taking time out of your life to give something to others like Itlj does. I'm so angry right now. Jesus, you people. Don't you have anything better to do.

[permetaform]

I've responded to Itlj's post in my addendum to my post. I'm actually relieved that she made her ranty post because it's restored my faith in her.

=) I don't write much and I used to vid but stuff in RL is not making that easy right now.

It...::peers::

I'm in fandom for people like Itlj who write superb fiction, now *you* I can't remember anything you've ever written.

I don't know how to respond to this. It makes me curious. Elaborate? =)

[(Anonymous)]

You have no right to say that your faith is restored. ltlj is not the one who broke faith and it was not you who was betrayed.

if you think ltlj has no RL which takes time from her writing you are very much mistaken so again, other than being a person who hurts others with out thinking and does not currently create anything but knocks those who try in a way likely to, no actually has made them run from ever doing so again.

You have friended ltlj again. What makes you think you have the right to do that, to claim friendship where you have shown none?

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I think if this is the case--if not posting publicly on the subject in one's lj is the standard--you may need to go ahead and unfriend me too.

She is awesome, and the default accusation of racism here was wrong.

[permetaform]

Yes she *is* awesome, I'm glad that I'd had a chance to read her post before she re-deleted her LJ. There's an addendum to my post regarding that matter.

Yes, I accused her of posessing elements of racism. Yes, it was a false accusation and I've should've double-checked her involvement in the whole SGA debacle. But no, I didn't call her a racist, because I think that word has reached the level of a slur and that it's original meaning is muddled. As I've stated in my post, I think that everyone posess elements of racism; it was not the racism itself I was getting incensed by.

Rather I was angry at how some of the participants to the discussions refused to consider the possibility that they *might* have actually done wrong. I've stated more on the matter in my post itself, but poke me if you want me to clairify 'cause I know that my words sometimes only make sense to me.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

You defacto called her a racist. There's no way you can say seriously that you didn't intend to label her, akukorax, and the other people as racist, because that was what your post was about. These people didn't post in a manner you liked, or in ltlj's case, she didn't post *anywhere* on this subject--seriously, is there a list somewhere of authors that haven't posted pubicly on the subject? I seriously cannot for the life of me figure out how you got her name when it's nowhere in regards to this subject. Do we need to post publicly on it to prove we're, well, thinking the way we're supposed to?

I can totally understand how a hot-button subject makes people post without thinking. Everyone does this. I have done this in a fit of anger about something. You're stressed--I totally get that, too. And lier is your friend and of course that would make it far more personal even than it already was for you. But this post you made was a public post, almost a unwritten blacklist, and when people asked why they were singled out, you responded wiht the specific link for korax and a quote for ltlj--not even a link to whatever she did, since there was nothing--but a quote. That's an accusation.

You really can't defend this. You can't say, I actually meant everyone, because your post was *about* these specific however-many people you singled out. It was public so people would know where you stand, what you find acceptable, and how certain people *aren't*. And in the process, you injured someone badly, labeled them publicly, and held them up to a public shame they didn't deserve.

[quillscribe.livejournal.com]

ltlj just deleted their live journal account. In point of fact, they *did* have a link to the Southern Poverty Law Center on their site as well.

::points at you:: Who are you to judge who should self-examine and who shouldn't? A little friendly debate is fine. In depth discussion is always good. Hurling accusations that can be hurtful is something else. How about a little self-examination yourself? Cause that? *points above* Was a petty thing to do.

Nice going.

[permetaform]

I made an addendum to my post, in regards to hers.

I'm actually glad she posted what she did and that I'd had a chance to read it before she'd deleted her journal. It restored my respect for her, and I don't feel so betrayed anymore.

[denynothing1.livejournal.com]

Your addendum does very little to repair the damage you have done by making mind boggling assumptions, if not baseless accusations.

I also sincerely doubt that your respect is something ltlj would ever want, need or desire.

Up until this point, for someone who mainly lurks like myself, this discussion has actually been illuminating and instructive, minor wanking aside. But your little exercise in j'accuse, while it may have made YOU feel just peachy about yourself, has devastated someone else, in a way you clearly still don't understand.

You didn't just make a vague, blanket statement about inherent racism in everyone reading your post, you *defriended* her -- *her* specifically. Out of how many people on your flist? Over, in your own words, feeling "betrayed at something that hadn't happened?"

You don't know me from Adam, and I certainly have no desire to know you, but since you made a public accusation in your reply to her comment above I feel perfectly comfortable in coming here from the link ltlj posted in her journal before it was deleted and saying that in my 10 years in fandom, I have seen some appalling behavior, but this was really special.

Congratulations on moving to the head of a long, nasty line.

[permetaform]

Your addendum does very little to repair the damage you have done by making mind boggling assumptions, if not baseless accusations.

I know that my apologies are little compared to the damage but they are there because I feel that ltlj deserves an apology.


I also sincerely doubt that your respect is something [info]ltlj would ever want, need or desire.

I don't particularly wish for my respect to be coveted or objectified. I don't think I would respect someone that would try to covet my respect because the kind of behavior that results from that attitude is discomforting. I mention my respect because it is true, and I had a wish to convey that there was no hard feelings on my part for her ranting about me. I wished to convey that her critique of me was not recieved poorly.


while it may have made YOU feel just peachy about yourself, has devastated someone else, in a way you clearly still don't understand.

...you are assuming many things about me in that statement that I do not feel or think. Please don't make the same mistake I did with ltlj.


you *defriended* her -- *her* specifically.

No actually, I defriended about 15 people out of over 400ish. I've added ltlj back, as well as one other. You can read that thread in the comments above.


You don't know me from Adam, and I certainly have no desire to know you, but since you made a public accusation in your reply to her comment above I feel perfectly comfortable in coming here from the link [info]ltlj posted in her journal before it was deleted and saying that in my 10 years in fandom, I have seen some appalling behavior, but this was really special.

That is fine for you to express that. You certainly have a right to since I've hurt a friend. I'm not sure what else I could do other than apologize and say that I'll be on guard over myself that I do my research more thoroughly. I won't delete my comment because I don't believe in hiding my mistakes, but instead in looking at them and learning from them, and it is easy enough for ltlj to purge the comment email from her inbox. Had it have been on her journal I would have been fine with her deleting it because it is her journal and thus her own space.

...a thought occurs to me. Does it help that my post really *was* a generalized post, and *not* a thinly veiled attack specifically directed towards ltlj?

[wickedwords.livejournal.com]

No, because it's really the comment that you made later when she said that it was your right to delete her over the race wank. Pointing at the post and quoting a line from it in italics at her is what made it a personal attack.

[quillscribe.livejournal.com]

..."It restored my respect for her, and I don't feel so betrayed anymore."

Good for you. The damage is still done. You were never owed an explanation.

[permetaform]

no I wasn't owed an explanation, but I was glad that I got one because it showed me I was wrong.

[lillian13.livejournal.com]

You know what we used to call posters like you in the old days of Usenet? A troll. Someone who would pop into a discussion, make loud, rude, accusatory posts, and then get all flustered and defensive when they were called on it. We used to have a tool for dealing with people like you too. We could completely screen any comments you ever made so that they never appeared on our screens. Usually announced with a /plonk.

/plonk

[permetaform]

Well, I have to admit that I was flustered and upset at myself for making such a mistake, and I was defending myself, so yes I was defensive.

What I have wished for of trolls is that they would just stop responding to stop making an ass of themselves and to stop escalating the grief, so I will do so.

I am sorry.

[(Anonymous)]

Pot meet kettle.