::eyeballs fandom:: SGA people, wtf.

[permetaform]

not that I'm really especially participating in fandom much, but...

Well, so I got caught up on SGA's Race wank, and well, what liviapenn's said on the subject, is pretty much spot on pure golden.

Now, I don't much like the type of discussion on racism that attempts to imbue shame onto "racists", because not only does that make people all defensive and reactionary liek whoa, but it also make "racists" the ones who commit racism.

And...the fact of the matter is that it's an issue of racism that exists in *people*, in *friends*, in people you *admire*; it's an issue of the racism that exists to some degree in each. person. because it *does*. Because we swim in it far too much (due to American media, that's tangled with worldwide media) and it's...it's *transparent* because you swim in it and is invisible to a very many people.

And I'm not going to hate people for being only human. I'm not going to shame people for something they cannot help.

However, I don't like people who aren't willing to self-examine when others are getting hurt at an act of theirs and it is being pointed out. I don't like how the sheer *possibility* that it's their own fault that they caused damage cannot pass through their mind, that they aren't willing to examine their own words and actions to see if these accusations are true.

Perhaps this is just my mental state as of now, with all the RL stuff going on for me. Perhaps this is me finally putting my foot down.

I'm defriending certain of you. Feel free to defriend me back.

[edit 1:11pm for grammar]

[edit 9:57pm] I've just come back from doing errands and ltlj's recent post was pointed out to me.

I sincerely apologize to ltlj for finding ill in her when there was none. I apologize for not following up and double-checking her own words before defriending. I apologize for the tone in my own comment. I was feeling betrayed at something that hadn't happened and acted far too quickly. Frankly, thank you for your ranty post.

I don't apologize for calling her a racist because in my post I called both everyone and no one a racist, because I believe that everybody has elements of racism in themselves to a degree. I do not level "that obscene hateful accusation" because I don't think it's useful in discussions of prejudice.

I haven't looked at the new comments in this post yet. I will do that now, time 10:10pm.

[edit 10:19pm] btw, I have re-added ltlj, and my current policy still stands that it's okay to either friend or defriend me at will.

[edit 10:33pm] ::facepalm:: edited my edit at 9:57pm to make it more concise and relevant.

[edit 9:22pm March 31st] in direct response here, but pertinent to the post in general:

Well, I have to admit that I was flustered and upset at myself for making such a mistake, and I was defending myself, so yes I was defensive.

What I have wished for of trolls is that they would just stop responding, to stop making an ass of themselves and to stop escalating the grief, so I will do so.

I am sorry.

Comments

[aliaswestgate.livejournal.com]

Not something i even heard about in my case. I see it happens but think nothing of it. Some people can't help the ways they build stories. But that's no reason to thrash them for it. We all live with it to a degree. Very few of us can shrug it off or ignore it. The ones that can are usually influenced by different cultures instead of just our own, as well.

That said. It's probably best just to keep out of that viper's nest. Even skimming over the post made me a little angry. Because there was no compromise, no way to make it better that stuck out at me. Instead it was sheer and blatent anger, with no resolve. But i think that's the virgo in me, the eternal diplomat speaking. *grins* And a dash of the snake year i was born in, as well.

[amalthia]

I liked what liviapenn had to say on the subject as well she did it in such a way that it made me think but didn't get my hackles up. Of course I didn't know about the wank until after I'd ready read livia's meta on the subject...but a quick visit to fandom_wank filled me in on the rest.

[amalthia]

yeah i'm glad those posts were locked because I don't know if I could have restrained myself. and the thing is both sides got me up in arms which was just awful!

[turtlespeaks.livejournal.com]

Uuuh, I am I little confused as to why you defriended me. I can understand if you are just not interested anymore, because goodness knows I am not really doing anything on my journal, but I just want to make sure you don't think I took part in the whole SGA Race thing, because I didn't, I didn't even really find out about it until it was pretty much over. I just wanted to make sure.

But, anyway, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I commend you for your point of view. I know I have been lurking for the past little while, but I do home things start getting better for you. Good luck. *hugs*

[anoel.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. It's a cultural thing, people need to step away from themselves and see it that way.

[ltlj.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure why you apparently defriended me over the race wank, but that's your decision and it's always defriending amnesty day in my journal.

[permetaform]

here is where you commented.

That post was a direct response to the wank.

And it's not that I don't condone joking, but it wasn't joking in a way that shared in the silliness of the situation, (morgandawn is especially skilled at this), it was not a a joke to inspire connectedness between the two participants.

Instead it belitted one side of the dispute. It "put down", it "made light of", it "made fun of".

It made a genuine issue seem fake, and thus dismissable.

Also? I am in a white collar career. The a couple of the guys around me casually carry swiss army knives or switchblades of some sort. Mace/tazer in the purse is not a big deal. And two people I know are really into self-defense and other martial arts. At what point does carrying concealed weaponry constitute oneself as not being able to be white collar?

However, I thank you for your thoughts and well wishes on my RL situation.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

That post was awesome, I thought. It's funny, I was reading Malcolm Gladwell's Blink and had just gotten to the chapter on unconscious racial bias-- and then I turn on my computer and lo! here's this racewank. It's so easy to attack people on perceived racism, and it's so easy to deny that anything's happened-- it's tougher to think about your biases, and to be open to the possibility that other people's biases may not be intentional. It's not a simple-answers topic.

[permetaform]

Because there was no compromise, no way to make it better that stuck out at me.

Have you ever come across a co-worker or a conspicuous and unavoidable person in your social circle that was consistently just so completely homophobic or misygnistic that the didn't realize it? That they'd keep commenting on women as objects, as cock sheaths, as deserving rape, or that they'd keep mentioning how all the fags will just go to hell because they'll infect the area around them?

And you just politely ask them to stop, and they think you're compromising their individuality.

You point out that it's hurting you and they think you're a weak pussy for taking offence.

You try to reason out *why* their logic is flawed and *why* they have blinkers on in regards to women or to gays, and they just think you're full of shit and soft-in-the-head, and, "ohhh they can't take a joke! We were just kidding around, right guys?"

This happens again and again.

And you've tried all the ways, and now you're just angry. Maybe yelling would work, you think, because fuck it all if anything else had worked.

There was no compromise, because So Many Compromises were talked about, over and over in SGA and in other fandoms. And none of them have taken hold. All the stuff and suggestions that liviapenn mentioned in her post have been mentioned before in other meta, other discussions, REPEATEDLY.

And btw? I know Virgos, who love to critique, who love a good debate, who loves their logic. It dismays me that you can't see your logic is flawed.

It's almost like one of those medical drama things where stuff goes wrong. They go to the doctor and they list their symptoms and the doctor thinks your imagining it. Or perhaps they think it's something other than what it is, or you're too stressed, or you're smoking too much and should quit and eat less fatty foods. They think that the pain you feel you're imagining and they don't believe you because they're so Firmly Set on their original diagnosis. And you try and you try again, to no avail. Turn around twice and suddenly you have cancer, and you discover that the symptoms that the doctor thought was all in your head was your body being attacked.

I don't particularly wish to go into the history of the race discussion in SGA. liviapenn outlines some of it but...it's long and twisty and you're having the same discussions over and over again. And considering which, the first time I read it I thought that lierdumoa's reaction was quite restrained.

So I wonder at the fact that her post made you angry. There was no compromise, granted. But she was pointing out that something was Wrong and it Hurts.

So why does it make you angry that she says it hurts? o.0; Is she not allowed to say "ow"? Must she diagnose herself at that moment?

[permetaform]

::points at post::

However, I don't like people who aren't willing to self-examine when others are getting hurt at an act of theirs and it is being pointed out.

[permetaform]

::nods:: no it's not a simple-answers topic. And...well, just baby-steps I think.

There was that spat awhile back about the POTC 2 movie about racism too...and god just the sheer shame-spreading with the discussions surrounding it made me cringe so hard. Like the discussions THEMSELVES were making it tough for people to examine their own biases and thus the discussions were shutting down....discussion on race. XD

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's hard. I'm going to take the test about assumptions at some point and hate myself, I suspect. Gladwell said he came out of it feeling awful and he's half-black.

Oh, yeah, I caught a little of that, I think through you posting about it, and just decided to ignore it. POTC is hard because it's historically set, so you have extra challenges, and...well.

[aliaswestgate.livejournal.com]

It trips a nerve, but it's one i've dealt with my entire life as a mixed kid, Permeta. The complaining about being hurt does not help shit either. I live and i do my work in my way. Which means going about my life and not letting crap like that make me throw up my hands and give up about humanity. They can complain, they're allowed to. I'm not telling them to stop. That would be completely hypocritical! it's something i contemplated to myself as a teenager, and settling in on who i was. Not what i was defined AS.

I'd written an entire rant and erased it. There are some things not worth resurrecting for me, Permeta. *sighs* This kind of thing in fandom is just something i have to stay out of. I have enough problems in my rl, adding drama to fandom is too much. I'm not even angry about the whole thing. So i'm detached. But i'm not angry.

[aliaswestgate.livejournal.com]

I don't deny that it isn't a part of society either. I know it's there. I get reminders every time someone new comes to the counter of my pharmacy and they do a double take when i dont' speak the way they expect me to. I can choose to let it bother me, or i can move on and do what little to change that opinion by being myself.

[amalthia]

for me it was the tone and the location of the post and her post wasn't so bad but it was inflammatory and then people jumped in and they were so much worse. If I were upset about something in the story I'd have written to the author privately, but that's just me.


Or she could have posted about the trend in AU's for authors to do this without naming names because this isn't the first AU that has put Ronon and Teyla in a bad job compared to Rodney or Sheppard. Livia's post is the first one that brought this up for AUs that I'd read and it made me think.


Honestly, when I read the story, I didn't give it much thought as to what jobs the characters have because I liked his character in the story. Plus I had friends that worked in coffee shops and based on Ronon's age it wasn't far fetched to imagine him still in school getting a degree while working part time.

At the moment I sympathize with both sides, I feel for the author that wrote this story because she is certainly not the first to do this but apparently she wrote the story that broke the camel's back. My main fear is that authors seeing this will worry more about what they write and make different decisions to just avoid potentially upsetting anyone, which I think does stifle creativity.

on the other hand, people should already be somewhat aware of their potential audience and not just assume all their readers are white/middle class women.

lierdumoa post didn't upset me the same way the other posts that followed her's did because I think she said her piece and was done, there was some other guy that was just...something about him rubbed me the wrong way and I'd have to go back and find what he wrote that made my hackles rise.

This isn't an easy topic to talk about because it is emotional. I mean I still remember the one time my mom, brother, and I were kicked out of a restaurant and told to go back to Mexico. (yes I know I can pass for white but my mom can't and I do notice that Hispanics on tv are stereotyped as thugs and criminals assuming they are on tv at all, let alone sci-fi)

[jessant.livejournal.com]

Wow. Get off your high horse. Maybe you need to self-examine. I'm in fandom for people like Itlj who write superb fiction, now *you* I can't remember anything you've ever written. Thanks for leveling accusations at people you don't even know and making them want to leave fandom. Cause being judgmental asshats is what fandom is all about, not you know sharing fiction, taking time out of your life to give something to others like Itlj does. I'm so angry right now. Jesus, you people. Don't you have anything better to do.

[seperis.livejournal.com]

I think if this is the case--if not posting publicly on the subject in one's lj is the standard--you may need to go ahead and unfriend me too.

She is awesome, and the default accusation of racism here was wrong.

[falzalot.livejournal.com]

I don't follow SGA, so I have no clue what the hell's going on, but at every company where I have ever worked, carrying a knife on the campus would get your ass fired. The place I'm at now? You can't even have target archery arrows locked in your trunk in the parking lot.

And switchblades? Last I heard, they were illegal to carry in the state of California.

You may want to reread your HR regs.

[turtlespeaks.livejournal.com]

I. . . . wow. I had no idea that was connected. Heck, I think at that point I wasn't even aware of the wank. I thought she was just a joke at the time, and when I found out about the wank I had completely forgot about that post.

God, now that I actually know what's going on, I feel pretty much like a loser. I thought it was joke was about the knives in the hair, but I guess at the time I hadn't really read through the post well when I commented.

I mean, I don't really feel like this. I've worked white collar jobs, and I carry a switch blade in my pocket and I have mace in my purse at all times. I own several swords, and I've taken Fencing and Martial Arts for years. I believe in the ability to defend one's self, I've had to defend myself in such a way in the past, and it has nothing to do with whatever kind of job you have.

Yet I still . . . huh.

I will tell you, though, even though it's inexcusable that I commented without really reading through what the post was saying thoroughly, I really had no idea about the race wank or what that issues where when I read that. I honestly just thought it was a joke about knives in Ronon's hair.

I'm very embarrassed and upset with myself right now. I don't even remember that post, and I wish I hadn't even commented now that I know what it's all about.

All I can do is apologize, and hope to god that you don't think I'm a horrible person. I'm deleting it, because I really don't agree with what the whole situation is about. Thanks for showing that too me, and again, I am mortified with myself.

Sorry.

[permetaform]

well I understand enough that there's somethings one should stay out of and identitfy with that wish. And I firmly agree that both giving up about humanity and random complaining is useless. However I don't think one shouldn't complain if there is truly just cause, and sometimes things have to be pointed out or one will never *know*.

I dunno, mayhap it's that I'm one of those people that likes it when people point out the spinach in my teeth, so that I might remove it.

[permetaform]

::blinks::

oh wow. ok. you honestly didn't know then.

I apologize for jumping on you then and I'm glad you commented to clarify yourself. I was horrified to have found your comment on that post and...from your comment you seem sincere. And that you *are* thinking about the matter now. I'll re-add you now, 'cause it would be silly of me not to, but feel free to not friend me back.

[permetaform]

...I'm in LA. They're sorta free spirited about concealed weaponry. ::wry::

[permetaform]

::hugs::

[quillscribe.livejournal.com]

ltlj just deleted their live journal account. In point of fact, they *did* have a link to the Southern Poverty Law Center on their site as well.

::points at you:: Who are you to judge who should self-examine and who shouldn't? A little friendly debate is fine. In depth discussion is always good. Hurling accusations that can be hurtful is something else. How about a little self-examination yourself? Cause that? *points above* Was a petty thing to do.

Nice going.

[permetaform]

I've responded to Itlj's post in my addendum to my post. I'm actually relieved that she made her ranty post because it's restored my faith in her.

=) I don't write much and I used to vid but stuff in RL is not making that easy right now.

It...::peers::

I'm in fandom for people like Itlj who write superb fiction, now *you* I can't remember anything you've ever written.

I don't know how to respond to this. It makes me curious. Elaborate? =)