Half-formed thoughts.

[permetaform]

You know, in reference to the Blade Runner discussion...I wonder how many people separate 'like' and 'love' the way I do, or perhaps if everybody just mixes it all up which confuses me a bit 'cause they're not the same.

Perhaps it's like the "x loves y, but x is not IN LOVE with y" thing I see occasionally in fic?

It's similar to how I like Blade Runner, but am in love with The 5th Element, I think...but what's the difference?

Is it just a matter of degree? "I like you" v. "I love you"?

Doesn't feel quite right.

I almost want to say that it's a mental love instead of an emotional love, but I'm not sure if that's quite the right analogy.

Perhaps:
Like = critical analytical admiration
Love = bittersweet obsession adoration

[edit] 2.18.5

For whereas 'like' is appreciation, 'love' includes all the messyness, where flaws aren't 'bad', and there's faults but you're in helpless adoration anyways.

Or perhaps I'm still missing the point. ::is befuddled:: This is not helped by the fact that some people I'm attracted to because I want to *be* them. (for instance, The Boy in HS that was way too similar to The Mom, in hindsight, but who I think I always labled as 'Someone Worthy Of Approval')

(...also, this brings up probably bad analogies to the Black Widow thing...ie. absorbing one's talents by ::cough:: absorbing one's ...talents)

::stares in befuddlement at post:: argh. I dunno. I'm still feeling this subject out, would like (and love ;D) input on this.

[edit 2.18.5]
further distinctions:

'in love' = which by my definition starts out in pure passion and mellows out into the bittersweet attachment.
'love' = ie. OMG LOVE!, it's that flare of pure joy that may be empty very quickly. 'like' = for me, lasts about as long as 'in love', but it's...shaded less ardently. I'm not as compelled to understand the messy sides when I like something than with things that I love.

ps. there's tons of neat saiyuki 58 links in the comments to this post

Comments

[tanacawyr.livejournal.com]

Maybe "love" is something which has changed YOU. If I "like" something, the way you use the word, I enjoy consuming it, but it doesn'e leave a profound mark on me when it's finished.

If I "love" something, I am changed by consuming it.

[permetaform]

::ponders:: could see that too!

[karose.livejournal.com]

*pokes head in* Say, uh. Offtopic, sorry, but... Did those standies happen to come yet?

[permetaform]

::flyby snogs::

[niqaeli]

Well, I always get the impression that there's love and there's in love, and that there is a huge difference. For me, this is hard to compute--my emotions just don't map out to that. I mean, I think I'm "in love" with my boyfriend, because god knows I love him fiercely enough, but it's not really a love that feels overwhelmingly different from how I love a lot of my friends. Maybe more intense, but not always--maybe different, but that's cos they're different people, and you can't love different people in the same way.

I dunno. "Love" vs. "In love" is a concept I've been struggling with and failing to understand for a long time--mostly with people, but I guess it applies to my fannishness too. I think that may be a lot of why I'm inclined towards poly, though.

Also, maybe "like" is... well, you find yourself warmly inclined towards the person/thing, and maybe it'll develop further at some point cos you do find 'em interesting, but you haven't connected enough to really say you have a significant emotional connection. Sometimes it'll stay that vague warm feeling, and you'll stay acquaintances and sometimes it'll bloom into something more? Dunno.

[permetaform]

Also, maybe "like" is... well, you find yourself warmly inclined towards the person/thing, and maybe it'll develop further at some point cos you do find 'em interesting, but you haven't connected enough to really say you have a significant emotional connection. Sometimes it'll stay that vague warm feeling, and you'll stay acquaintances and sometimes it'll bloom into something more? Dunno.

::nods:: that's why I've labeled 'like' as critical admiration and then revised that to 'analytical' admiration which is more precise. Like the difference between admiring something and adoring it, mental v. emotional? or perhaps just the degree of distance?

Or perhaps just the level of flaws you're willing to live with? ('cause that's part of the difference between 5th Element and Blade Runner too, but I don't know if that's *indicative* of the different, or a side-effect of some other inherent difference between like and love)

[suzvoy.livejournal.com]

Ohhh, interesting post. I don't think I have anything worthwhile to say, but interesting post :)

[permetaform]

=D ::blows kisses::

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

Honestly? I tend to treat them not only as separate things, but as qualities unique to an individual. You know, like how almost nobody's got the same genetic code. I go to several places for my movie reviews, and I've seen too many movies get absolutely, positively diametrically opposite reviews (person A thought the plot was wandering and weak, person B thought it was tightly written and engaging) to believe that you can apply objective judgment to something like that and come out with a 'standard' opinion. Hell, I admired Blade Runner and I laughed my head off at The Fifth Element (which parodied some SF tropes that badly needed to be taken down a few pegs).

It's not even constant over time. You realize that Blade Runner and the novella off which it was based qualified as pulp-fiction when it was written? Now it's considered classic dystophic SF. Dracula was the pulpfiction bestseller of its period. SF and fantasy started out as pulp-fiction type mags. So where's the point in suddenly detaching this stuff from its roots and saying it's too good to be associated with it? Nothing starts out a classic; that happens over time.

[permetaform]

::nods:: I was in this post, and still am actually, trying to suss out my individual reactions to 'like' and 'love' in part by comparing my responses to others'. I realize that it's a changeable quality, but I wish to know where I am currently (to know my position) and to understand my own imbalances so that I know how I might need to set that against the imbalances inherent in everything else.

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

my individual reactions to 'like' and 'love'

English isn't a great language for that, is it? I don't know much Chinese, but I think their way of more expressions for different degrees of 'liking' and 'loving' is more convenient.

[guede-mazaka.livejournal.com]

And my response got longer, so I made it a separate post.

[linzeestyle.livejournal.com]

I seperate "like," "love," and "in love" pretty distinctly, actually. Fannishly to me, "like" is a more critical thing, whereas love is almost blinding. An example of this for me, is this.

I like QaF. I care about it enough to watch it and to read spoilers, but I'm not emotionally invested - it can't hurt me deeply, it can't make me giddy, and my attentions for it are pretty much limited to when it's actively in front of me. I'm also freely critical of it. When it sucks I will admit it sucks, when it's not interesting I wont' watch it, and I won't really devote a lot of time to meta over it because it rarely consumes my thoughts when it's not around.

I'm in love with Smallville. It's a messy relationship and it's likely to fizzle and burn out as quickly as it came to life. When I hate it, it's passionate - I bitch and moan and meta about how horribly it is and how I cannot understand why I started watching. When I love it, it's equally passionate - I make posts wondering how I managed to let this show go three years without latching on and compose adoring meta to the characters and my favorite plotlines. "In love" is intense, but it's also rather transitory to me - it's an amplied feeling that is probably not going to last.

Then there's love. The only fandom I "love" is Matchbox Twenty. They're entirely shielded from my critical eye, generally speaking. They have songs I love more, songs I love less, but the fact that it is them puts a sort of magic spell over everything they do and they would really have to fuck up for me to be able to say they'd done something I hated. It has more permanence than "in love" - I have phases of passionate "in love" with Matchbox Twenty (I'm in one right now with Rob's new song) but there's that undercurrent of extreme affection that's there even when I'm not actively paying attention to them. It has more permanence than "in love" and more strength and finality than "like."

Of course, in actual human relationships that's another thing entirely. I "like" my friends. I "love" my family and a few of my closest friends. I'm not "in love" with anyone. There's a definite distinction for me between the three, but I can't think hard enough to actually map them out. *scratches head* I may have to post on that myself later. *g*

Linzee

[permetaform]

huh, this comment confused me at first and then I realized that we have slightly different gradients of 'in love', which by my definition starts out in pure passion and mellows out into the bittersweet attachment. 'love' I associate more the way you label 'in love', ie. OMG LOVE!, it's that flare of pure joy that may be empty very quickly. 'like', for me, lasts about as long as 'in love', but it's...shaded less ardently. I'm not as compelled to understand the messy sides and with things that I love.

[linzeestyle.livejournal.com]

See, to me "in love" is an action - it's a verb. So it's something you *do.* "Love" is just something you...have. If that makes any sense. Man. I still wanna make a post about this now because you've got me thinking.

Linzee

[permetaform]

=D ::pokes:: lexana viiiiid.

oh btw, got idea for that verse you were having trouble with:

She stopped playing someone else's role - became something other than that image of a fairy princess and small-town homecoming queen. She took on a proactive role at the Talon (guided by Lex), and slowly realized that Clark was not going to work out and would ultimately leave her (a realization she came to only after confiding in Lex throughout S3).

So I sold it if I had it

proactive role at Talon

stacked it in the backyard

outside shot of Talon, her looking up (as if at the Talon) and smiling

they took what they needed when they go

Clark smiling at her and leaving, her quavering face

just leave me alone

her pushing Lex away, Lex still smiling at her and offering, her looking back at Lex.


ie. make that last line ironic and false. =D prove the line wrong

[devikun.livejournal.com]

[ch-ching] <- sound of 2-cents worth being added...

I think its all experiential. Meaning, I think value is ascribed to something (a film, or the definition of 'love' or 'like') as it is observed in SpaceTime rather than to the thing itself.

It's similar to how I like Blade Runner, but am in love with The 5th Element, I think...but what's the difference?

YOU are the difference.

To be Zen about it (and in Minekura-sensei's words actually, although not verbatim), the you of today is not the you of yesterday. And if everything is seen BY you, then the way you see changes with the way you change. In 5 years, considering that you won't be exactly the same person as you are now, do you really think that you'll think about 'love' and 'like' and Ridley Scott vs Luc Besson films in the same way as you do right now? I guarentee not (although you may still be confused about how to describe some of them!), but right now, for the you that you currently are, 5th Element speaks to you where Blade Runner doesn't, and 'love' seems to be stronger than 'like'.

You're only befuddled because you're trying to put a static value to something that is constantly changing and shifting ie the Today that you are standing in. Life is a temporal media. You should be down with that, considering your passion for video.

//end of rant

;)

[permetaform]

YOU are the difference.

Yes, I am the difference; but where does this differnece lie? what is it the rule of it? why is, by percieving something, the shine is lost?

I don't believe in things losing shine by understanding them, by disecting them, by being scientific about them; it's in my nature, it's in my religion.

And I may not be the same person, but I want to know where I come from and learn from that, I want to know where I currently am, and learn from that, and granted the combination of these two wants will never give me a blueprint to the future at least I approach the future from a mental place that, if not exactly balanced, I know a bit more how to balance it against the essential imbalance of the world around me.

I don't expect my loves and likes to stay constant, but I like knowing what they are and where they come from. I'm constantly befuddled and I constantly put myself in a mental space of befuddlement, shifting the bar so to speak, so that I'm constantly wondering and pushing myself.

Yes, life is a temporal media, and I am down with that. =) It's been my philosophy since what seems like forever, but only consciously registered sometime late HS, and is part of why I'm so facinated by the themes of transience and perception (perception/truth as a constantly shifting medium) and I suspect is why I'm so grabbed-by-the-balls by Saiyuki.

[stungunbilly.livejournal.com]

This post really resonates with me, because I'm having this love/hate thing with all the fandoms that are most currently to the forefront with me. House; love/hate. Death Note: mostly love/serious grr moments. Hex love lesbian best friend/hate annoying (spoiler) treatment of best friend.

I need to do something academic for awhile, and get appreciated for being obsessive yet critical.

[permetaform]

o.o oooo, yeah, I know what you mean.

either that, or form your own micro-fandom bubble in your own journal =D

[stungunbilly.livejournal.com]

[either that, or form your own micro-fandom bubble in your own journal =D]
Heh, that's the ticket. Almost as good as living in a pineapple under the sea, eh?

[permetaform]

except with less accusations of gayness

[klia.livejournal.com]

Love = bittersweet obsession

Bittersweet is a requirement? You never just *love* love something?

[permetaform]

::ponders:: it's hard to, 'cause for me, to love something is to know something and to know something really well is to dislike it at least a little.

I love my parents, I love America, I love vidding; but sometimes I get hurt by it or angry at it or frustrated at it. It doesn't mean that I doesn't love them any less...if anything it's pretty near a sign of love that you're willing to learn enough about whatever it is that you are initially turned off, no?

[klia.livejournal.com]

Well, life *is* pain. And love isn't black and white, it's all shades of grey, and most of us just do our darndest to make choices that bring us more positives than negatives. I guess I just take it for granted that the two come bundled together like software. :)

[permetaform]

I guess I just take it for granted that the two come bundled together like software.

exactly, that's what I meant by "bittersweet" =); heh, we seem to be having alot of semantic discussions, no?

[klia.livejournal.com]

heh, we seem to be having alot of semantic discussions, no?

Yeah, these newfangled contraptions called *words*. Heh.

[permetaform]

Yeah, these newfangled contraptions called *words*. Heh.

::grievous sigh of Woe:: they should instate telepathy...

[klia.livejournal.com]

Dude, telepathy would be just plain *scary*! I have enough trouble with my own thoughts! *g*

[permetaform]

XD what's funny is that I usually get accusations of brain-sharing with people...and here we're all having the opposite trouble...

[klia.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm sort of the non-intrusive type. :)

[permetaform]

::tsks at you and opens brain for you to intrude in:: =D

[klia.livejournal.com]

:D

::thinks we don't know each other well enough for that::