a mindless ramble on the judgement of 'Yaoi' and anime fandoms thereof.

[permetaform]

hmm, how do I explain this? gah. different fandom conventions there?

For instance, there's no conventional ratings. There's just a note on whether it's "lemon", "lime", or "citrus". Lemon is fucking, lime is groping or oral, citrus is petting and snogging. All in all I find I like that system better than the ratings system which I never *could* make heads or tails of. I mean, fer gosh sakes, if you don't want anyone under a certain age to read it, labeling it with rating isn't going to help, really. All in all, it seems that the "ew!" factor was enough to keep most of my peer group from reading things we weren't prepared to handle. ::shrugs::

Oh, and I dunno, but yaoi just seems to be a highly...stylized? Compared to what slash is. More pink bubbles and dark rose petals and even the *suffering* is pretty. Really really pretty, in a way that slash isn't, and I KNOW I'm going to get arguments on this point from somewhere; but just the *feel* of it is less real and more...crystalline? Or just stylized.

Partly it's the source material I think, the highly exceptionally stylized art of very non-realistic features, in the way that "<3" is not a real, bloody and bleeding *heart*. It's *not* and is in no way realistic; it's fantastical and yaoi is less...gritty? than slash.

Knowing, also, that yaoi generally has a slightly younger fanbase, that might also explain some things.

Knowing, also, that there's been a mingling of the slash and yaoi fandoms these past few years and that I'm speaking from what I remember of the fandoms three years past.

Knowing, also, that yaoi comes more from a culture
of "perfection", and if it's your fantasy, why *not* make it perfect? (this is a rhetorical question. I am posing it in the mindset of another, "a walk in another's shoes" so to speak.)

I will state it plainly here: This IS a culture clash.

Say it with me now: Culture. Clash.

Different perspectives, different values. Easy to say, hard to live. And NO, there isn't really solid grounds for argument based on 'logic' in some issues, because while Person1 might think in terms of "A to B to C to D", Person2 might think in terms of "A to 1 to One to O", and Person3 might think in terms of "A > B > C and thus Cat".

Summary?

You can't make 'logical' arguments when your opponent's base values are different than yours.

Logic HAS no footing (no basis, support, or foundation) when the parties in discussion can't agree whether "1" means "first" or "least". Or for that matter, when neither party even realizes that there's a miscommunication along those lines.

::facepalm::

(btw, this is not directed to anyone. this has been stewing for a bit.)

[]

Oh btw.

This?

It's *exactly* what you think it is.

Ah, those Japanese. Shall we blame it on the hot springs and day-time porn? ;)

[]

Point of happiness:

Seeing this icon?

(moondog's)

...makes me happy.

Also? Whenever viva_gloria writes I'm happy.

Go read (Some Say The World Will) End in Fire

It's only the second piece of Norse Mythology slash that I've come across. And oooooooh, but it's good. It's deathly good and I love it on many levels, 'cause it's layered and deals with the Odin/Loki dynamic so fabulously.

And, really, there should be more Norse!slash. There just should. Where else can you not only get superpowers and literal talking heads and the fabulously beautiful and the famously ripped and neat weaponry and angsty drama and the Original Armageddon...

And! Canon Mpreg! Canon! Mpreg!

...though it's a bit fucked up that Odin kept the kid for his war stallion; but hey, the whole thing was partly Loki's fault anyhoo. (oh, and Odin wasn't the dad. A horse was. And it's not really beastiality. Really. 'Cause shapechanger, y'know? erm. I'm kinda not helping the cause here, am I? ::cringe:: I'm still blaming it on the meds)

Comments

[marquesate.livejournal.com]

Go read (Some Say The World Will) End in Fire


I just did and thank you for recommending it!

It blew me away, fantastic.

Re:

[permetaform]

no problem! glad you like it, spread the Norse!love says I! ::huggles::

[franzeska]

I know what you mean about yaoi, but for me it usually just comes off as poorly characterized and unrealistic. I sometimes write pairings with characters from anime series, but I write them in a very slashy style. I just can't get past the different cultural take on internal consistency of characters.

Re:

[permetaform]

yup, it can be viewed that way.

[tacks.livejournal.com]

Oh holy fuck, I didn't know there was a new trailer.

FURBALL

I'm waiting for guede_mazaka to write Puss In Boots/El-kitty/Sand kitty. I have no morals, I'm asking for it.

Re:

[permetaform]

I have no morals, I'm asking for it.

and I am *so* right there with you...

and yes the furball.the FURBALL. and the Fiona line! and. so. dead. (yespleasecanwekeephim?? ::wibble::)

Re:

[melusina]

You and me both, baby. If the kitty love is wrong, I don't wanna be right. . .

(Your icon made my morning, by the way. We've been quoting that line at our house for days - I think it's becoming one of the official nicknames for baby.)

Re:

[permetaform]

ps. about the kitties??

"He had heard all the smart alecs talking about why cats made beelines for people who didn’t like them. The latest theory being that people who detested the mangy flearidden furballs, would look away and close their eyes, and cats would pick up this body language and translate it into an act of non aggression, and be attracted by it.

Rincewind knew better. He knew the real reason was that cats were malevolent power crazy psychotic maniacs who liked torturing anything, be it mice or men.

They also thought it was funny."

- from here.

odd how very very well that description works in translation...

[melusina]

I'm actually proud of the pirates - so far the kerfluffle has been handled in a fairly adult manner. But how will we make it onto fandom_wank if we don't descend into name calling and personal accusations?!?

Oh, wait, being on fandom_wank is a *bad* thing. Nev-er mind. . .

I actually think the most disturbing thing about the underage Elizabeth fic is that she's depicted as enjoying it and asking for more. It's a very distorted view of that situation (in addition the fic is completely ooc for both characters). Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that the author shouldn't have written or posted it (although I do think the story is *very* disturbing). But she *really* should have put much stronger and clearer warnings on it (like webcrowmancer I think underage sexuality with partners of similar ages is different from adult / child situations), not listing a pairing in this instance was bad form.

Re:

[tacks.livejournal.com]

I missed the entire kerfuffle! I'm caught up now, and generally agree that the characterisation of Norrington was rather mind boggling - mainly I wonder about the writer and why she felt she needed/wanted to write it. Having come so late my reason for looking at all was to see what all the fuss was about and be able to pass my own opinion properly - ie. an educated one - and yes, I absolutely agree there should have been stronger warnings.

I can see though, perhaps, that she might have been going for a surprise tactic, possibly? And thus not wanted to spoil it? But that's a little disturbing, what with the issue contained - by this I mean, if she WAS using it just as a shocktactic then that seems to belittle the severity of the issue. I don't know, I'm loathe to try and pass judgement when there are many valid points of view I haven't read. But, and not to draw parallels on two different topics, but when a fic contains character death, for example, as a writer, you might not want to spoil that in the warnings section before anyone gets to it. Which is something I have to address soon, hence my worry. I might ask a few people's opinions on this, before I post.

Bah, it's a complicated issue. And my head hurts. It was my first ay back at college today! *whines*

But yes, the maturity with which it's been/being dealt with is brilliant! And here we're meant to be raucous pirates. o_0

Re:

[permetaform]

::beams:: yes, am very happy at the pirate fandom. The other kerfuffle, too, was handled in a very nice way and was actually eventually diffused instead of spilling over into any bitterness.

like inkbug mentioned, I think it might be so that it would be a surprise. I've used the 'surprise' tactic before too; and as well, many of my first yaoi fics I wrote completely without pairing or warning labels because I wanted people to give it a chance. It took a LONG while before I put *any* labels on my website, through sheer bloodymindedness. In fact, I still have a residual separate page where I listed pairings...

[maymorning.livejournal.com]

Just followed your link to the Hello Kitty, ahem, implement. I WANNA!!! *ahem* OMG it's so pink and cute and Kittyish and ohhhhh! *points to your ohhhh icon which is probably somewhere on the page* I have got to drag my Sprog downstairs from her philiosophy books and show her it. She'll have conniptions!

Re:

[permetaform]

::grins:: priceless, ain't it??

[turtlespeaks.livejournal.com]

Heh!! I found that Hello Kitty Vibrator before! LOL My friend and I have been hearing stories about it for years then we found one at a convention and the conversation went something like this:
Me: OMG is that what I think it is.
Kit: *gose over to see* KOR GET OVER HERE!
Me and Kit: *stare at it* Wow!
Me: It's so wrong.
Kit: But it's so figures.
Me: I feel kinda dirty now.
Kit: Yeah.

Then we told all everyone we knew and everyone went to go look upon it's horror/cutness/wrongness!

Re:

[permetaform]

::giggles:: the urban legend that wasn't.

[climb-on.livejournal.com]

I am loving you SO much for posting that trailer link. Psych midterm? Pssh! What midterm? I just wanna see him hiss again! XD XD

...and er. Hello Kitty vibrator - seen it before, but the next thing you know they'll have a Hello Kitty S&M outfit line.

...and whoa, bad mental image.

Re:

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Hello Kitty vibrator - seen it before, but the next thing you know they'll have a Hello Kitty S&M outfit line.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they had one already. They have Hello Kitty everything. Hence the vibrator, which one of my friends (who collects Hello Kitty gear) was recently given for her 19th birthday. It had pointy ears. It terrified us.

[scanky-chops.livejournal.com]

See? Why am i not surprised with the Hello Kitty vibrator? Is it becasue whilst in Japan i met a assorted number of crazy old people as well as finding an actual porn vending machine, which i didn't have the balls to actually use? [Er... no pun intended]

Don't worry Japan. October this year i'm there. :D

Re:

[permetaform]

hee! a porn vending machine you say?? 'Cause I know the Japanese are vending machine happy (and every single one of them works), but wow. That's impressive.

[evyg.livejournal.com]

i...

trailer.

trailer.

TRAILER!

*dies*

[permetaform]

::grins:: knew it.

The Fiona line, no?

[ciceqi.livejournal.com]

Um, cackles...I've written that. Loki/the giant's horse whose name escapes me. Uh...does it help to say that my slashfic is actually miles tamer than my origfic? *snickers* But keeping the kid as a warhorse doesn't surprise me, snerk...I mean, all of Loki's children were "monsters," whether he bore them or someone else did, and all of them got put to use in one fashion or another. I mean, look at Hel, the most normal-looking one of the lot. On the one hand, I think he scared the living daylights out of the other gods, taking the "But what if they breed?" line a little too far--on the other hand, I think they were rather more relaxed about the whole "Oh, the other father's a what?" thing cos, hey, their own bloodlines were a fairly mixed bag as it was.

That said, the only mpreg story you will EVER get me to write will involve aliens and belly-bursting parasites. Bwahahahaaaa...

As for yaoi-vs-slash, the main difference as far as I'm concerned is in the level of story resolution. With slash, a vig is a vig and is clearly marked. With yaoi, you takes yer chances. Even longer stories don't seem to have the real, satisfying plot/relationship resolution I crave, and so they're...tasty but not filling. Very, very beautiful, sure--but 3/4 of the time, I'm left feeling that nothing happened. Page count has nothing to do with it--I've read zillion-page yaoi epics that left me feeling like I'd been floating in a particularly pleasant drugged stupor for an hour or two, and yet feeling that the time was wasted, in a sense, because if all I wanted to do was stare at pretty things, I could go cruise the fanart sites. Whereas some slash drabbles--yours, for instance, come to mind!--say so much in terms of plot and development, spoken and unspoken, that a "mere" 100 words leaves me reeling and incoherent with "HOLY FUCK, YES!"

So to me, it seems like yaoi is much more static than slash--it tries to capture a moment in prose that couldn't quite be captured as an image--whereas slash is more dynamic, always digging busily away at the surface, whether it's a dog hunting up that last juicy skeleton in the closet bone or trying to tunnel under the fence to get somewhere. Which is a really silly metaphor, but what the hell, I'm drugged, I can get away with it, snerk...

And then there's PWPs, snerk...but that's a different babble with its own slash/yaoi differences...

Re:

[permetaform]

Um, cackles...I've written that.

::perks up:: *really*?? You don't say...::sidles off to read...::

::runs back to you and curls self around your legs:: dude. where? duuuuuude, where? ::looks up at you with full kitty eyes::

And, huh, I think you have a point with the whole "Really, Loki, just TRY not to have children with ANYONE, please? Please?" business, all's considering. ::ponders::

That said, the only mpreg story you will EVER get me to write will involve aliens and belly-bursting parasites. Bwahahahaaaa...

doooooooooo eeeeiiiiiiiiiiiit. ::grins and bounces:: Bonus points if it's Smallville. Extra bonus points if it's a crossover.

As for yaoi-vs-slash, the main difference as far as I'm concerned is in the level of story resolution.

Huh. Yeah, I could see that to; though it might also have to do with the Unholy WIP that occurs so much. (*snerk* really, the HP fandom doesn't even *compare*) You metaphor works methinks, I need to chew on this a bit more...

[http://users.livejournal.com/_audrey/]

...The Hello Kitty la la la not a vibrator la la la is freaking me out - especially that rather cheerful looking teddy bear sitting in front of him/her/it. o__0

*chooses to ignore it for the time being*

Ancient Mythology (especially Greek Mythology) is wonderfully amusing, especially the parts involving livestock.

[permetaform]

ah yes. those were the days, t'weren't it? When the men were men.

And the sheep were scared.

[berne.livejournal.com]

*shudders* Wasn't that fic awful? I'd just love to see the author's reaction when she gets 50 odd complaints through her inbox. *evilgrin* Muah.