permetaform | Conclusions in The Great Will Debate...

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Conclusions in The Great Will Debate...

The original Debate thread

In process of being discussed/updated...erm, and contains Elizabeth and Jack musings too...

last updated around 10:30, PLEASE point out redundancies and points of disagreements...(ie, the questionmark next to Will's confidence,..)

Agreements:

Will in a fantasy world
Will has a strong childside
Will as a computer geek
Will is competent in his field of knowledge
Will's field of knowledge is a bit limited at times
Will being a dumbass sometimes
Will being young
Will growing up throughout the movie
Will is illiterate
Will's confidence(?)
Elizabeth is ruthless
Elizabeth is pirate-y
Elizabeth is adaptable in pirate situations
Elizabeth is a romantic
Jack is on Jack's side
Jack doesn't like to get his own hands dirty
Will is able to learn
Will is sheltered emotionally
Will realizes Undead Pirate
Will is rash
Will is emotionally suppressed by the established hierarchy.

Differences:

How rash IS Will?
Degree of Will's suppression by the established hierarchy
Piracy-Justifiable in the end? (would matter towards Will's view of pirates at the end)
Degree of growth in the movie
Will's competency
Will's confidence(?)
Will has logic/common sense

Trigger Paradoxes:

definition: an action that would definitively prove a characterization one way or another that is non-canon; ie. if Jack pulled the Trigger and shot Will in the smithy.

Shooting Will, y or n?
Will telling Elizabeth (in cave) he loves her
Elizabeth knowing that Jack is a pirate when she first wakes up
Will being nicely dressed at Jack's hanging

Sequel theories:

Elizabeth turning evil

Note: ok, I HAVE to study for my math final (::kicks linear algerbra books::), so I'm AWOL until about...4 pm (Pacific)? that should give jaida and cali time to come back from lunch and get settled.

In the meanwhile, feel free to leave your thoughts on the matter.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I'm actually going to replay to things here, so like.... well, because we have left such an enthused!puppy!mess on MK's journal, and here is a fresh page to attack that is not under her fab fanfiction. ^__^;;

It seems that the things we have differences on are things that can't be quantified, properly, so rather than agreeing for the sake of agreeing or not agreeing at all it's more like it might take us another two days to chart those things out. XD;;

Regarding elements, yes, Will is very much earth and fire, rather than anything else; he grounds himself and then sinks deep and becomes obsessive over it.

Elizabeth? Fire and Air. She lacks a bit of focus at the wrong points (execution scene, Jack's reaction to rum), with streaks of stubborness untempered by water.

Jack is definately Water and Air. Expansive, diffusive, and infinitely flexible. Incidentally, is what makes the relationship with Elizabeth 'spark'.

Hmm... I'm going to have to disagree on this somewhat, I've already debated this out with

ladyjaida and we partitioned it out to Zodiac signs, because that's the most easily quantifiable system of character personality specifics possible.

I don't see Will having as much fire in him so much. I'm positive he's a Capricorn, which lends a certain inflexibility to him, and colors a lot of his general characteristics. I think, if anything, his ascendent or rising sign might be an air sign, which would color his occasional detachment from things, that certain feyness about him. But this air element is only rising or ascendent, for a person that doesn't use this classification system much, don't know if you do, that means an air sign is influencing him sort of... from the edge of things. Not even sure what air sign it is.

Elizabeth sort of strikes me as a Leo. In a lot of ways, a very strong fire sign, taking into account how volitle she can be, her need for control, and her need to take charge. I can't figure out what her influences would be, though, and there's something about this assignment that I haven't squared with myself, I just don't seem to feel her character well enough to know what it is. So maybe not.

Jack, meanwhile, I'm possitive is split cleanly between fire and water, a walking contridiction, and nothing fixed about him. I feel there's definetly something burning hot in his personality, the mutability of water, but not the detachment of air. I can only see him on the Pisces/Aries cusp, in terms of classification, which was something I pinned before I went and had a look at what that cusp was supposed to entail, personality wise.

So, I agree that elementally Jack and Will are direct opposites, but I disagree on what elements their personalites match to.

should I go on my Jack and Will rant here?

You could go into it right here. :)

heh, ok, more through answer after I finish noting down everything in the threads.

the elements I were referring to were less zodiac-derived than palmistry derived. (incidentally, if you want me to do a reading for you, scan your hands in and I'll see what I can do, yeah?)

but seriously I'm really interested in what you're saying about the zodiac signs, I dabble in it occasionally but more like as not most people only know their sunsigns. Incidentally, I'm a March 17th, Gemini acendant, Aries Moon. Which is probably why I'm able to tell when Jack's being out of character, but for the life of me can't pin him completely down...

LOL, yes, I actually meant ascendent and moon and not ascendent and rising. I feel like such a bad bad... person who was not thinking what she was writing. ::slaps self on hand:: I am March 25, Virgo ascendent, Leo moon. I find the zodiac the most detailed system for like... being able to refer to very detailed information for illustrating what you're talking about, I suppose. I hold with its influence in life, but as a character classification system it's really without peer. ^_^ I would certainly be interested in a palmestry reading although I warn I have like... crone hands, they are just unnatrually lined. ::will likely photo face too and be like "HELLO, NOT SIXTY":: XP

On the Aries/Pisces I was also going to note, with Jack, that although he does not act so much sensitive and compassionate on the outside, he has to have an extreme sensitivity to other people's emotions/moods to be able to play them like he does.

Zodiac wise, though, it's driving me crazy that I can't get the grip on Elizabeth to chart her out. @__@

crone hands, they are just unnatrually lined.

...you get stressed a lot? Like your worries overtaking your brain-type?

Either that, or do you mean the lines are unnaturally *deep*??

and yeah, I see what you mean about the character classification sys. and Virgo ascendent? lol! No wonder that debate occured...

yeah, what was it? something like 70 comments?? aheh.

It seems that the things we have differences on are things that can't be quantified, properly, so rather than agreeing for the sake of agreeing or not agreeing at all it's more like it might take us another two days to chart those things out. XD;;

Exactly. But I'd like them stated clearly and aboveboard so to speak so that we'd be able to take it into account in our discussion.

on elizabeth:

there's something about this assignment that I haven't squared with myself,

maybe toss in a sense of duty? loyalty? but it'd have to be weighted carefully, and maybe only through the other planets (nonAscendant/Sun/Moon) perhaps scorpio?

and:

Thankfully, Capricorns are patient, too, and are happy to wait for their ship to come in.

::gigglesnort::

ok, this is not helping, need to focus demmit, but ooo, pretty new site...

Do I think Elizabeth is a Scorpio? You know what. Maybe that's the problem. I think I do think her sun sign is scorpio. Water sign, sea lust, that fits in. Maybe with Leo moon sign, ascendent like... Gemini or something, I don't know, something air. Something along those lines. ::ponders:: Yes, that seems to fit more in my head. And she reminds me of Barbossa, and I'm positive Barbossa is a Scorpio with strong Taurus influences. So.

I'm not sure if I would have her as Leo moon, the air sign as moon sure, but ascendant usually means that would be a first impression of Elizabeth. The moon sign is more hidden, less obvious, like it's not obvious that she's a pirate fangirl... I could be off tho.

should I go on my Jack and Will rant here?

You could go into it right here. :)

It's posted up at my livejournal...

Hmmm... I'm a bit late in the Great Will Debate and the Elizabeth Sub-Debate. But I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned so far from what I've read at least...

Will is emotional, and whenever emotional things are concerned, he tends to act rashly, with his heart rather than his mind.

Will is also extremely perceptive and observes the little details. Such as the part in which he asks Jack about his father, Jack's first usage of the word "leverage," and Jack filching the coin from the treasure chest.

And a random blurp of mine: Will's social status as a blacksmith. Poor fellow, gets backhanded because of the occupation he does. You can clearly see that there are times in the movie when the others comment about his blacksmith-iness. What Will's precise feelings are towards his particular social status is a thing to be debated.

As for Elizabeth. I view her as a pragmatic mixed with that strong touch of loyalty and idealism a la: Fine I'll wear this dress so I won't have to go naked among a bunch of other piratey folk. And... We must save Will!

The interesting thing about Elizabeth is that she clearly does not care about Will's social status or whatever strictures that society poses on her. Will, on the other hand, is conscious to a certain degree. Best demostrated in the scene after the Govennor compliments Will's master.

It's high fucking time I joined in the debate, isn't it? I feel a little bit intimidated and shall not, indeed, be writing as much (off the bat) as my esteemed colleague and snugglebunny

calichan but at least I will have participated! And that is necessary, I think, considering this is shaping up to be one, fascinating, and two, famed throughout the land. Or it will be.

I'm definitely of the mind that Jack is fire and water, which makes sense, considering what a contradiction he can be. Of course, there is first the element of water ever changing in him, the fact that you very well might not see the same Jack twice (bursting into Pochahontas song, much?), and, of course, his love of the sea, of the freedom the sea brings, of the excitement and the unpredictability which is echoed in his own nature. But then there is the smoky, passionate side of him, a side more fiery and more impassioned than I think an air sign would lend itself to. It's tempered of course with the opposite sign in him, which makes him so unpredictable, himself, and so absolutely batshit sometimes, in terms of being a joke one moment and being able suddenly to turn around 180 degrees and shoot Barbossa with such seriousness and determination in him. (As

calichan said above, we've hashed this out together ... a lot. A whole damn lot. XD)

As for the Jack/Will which I think was mentioned somewhere here ... I'm not a fan of it. I just don't feel it. I don't know if they're right for each other at all, can see the occasional scenario playing out when certain factors (such as Bootstrap Bill, par example) are weighed into the mix. Straight out Jack/Will with no explanation (or an explanation that runs along the lines of "And then Will ran off from Elizabeth because the sea was calling, calling to him! And so was Jack!") makes me twitch and shudder. Not saying that you do this! Not saying that at all. But the general consensus on the Jack/Will scene seems to be that this is perfectly in character for Will to do, because the burning call of Jack's seafaring soul has left its brand upon Will's heart...

Yeah, you get my point.

So I will dive randomly into the Jack/Will now, and say, tell me your theories! I want to hear them! And then, I will babble lots, and give you mine!

first of all:

But the general consensus on the Jack/Will scene seems to be that this is perfectly in character for Will to do, because the burning call of Jack's seafaring soul has left its brand upon Will's heart...

yeah. ::covers eyes:: forgive my brethern, for they have created fanon!Will; bear not pitchforks for they have not done so through ill-will.

and, second:

What do you think of Sirius/Remus? This is pertient, I promise you.

I'll post this on this thread to say that Jaida has a lunch she just ran out to, so she'll be back sometime this afternoon, and I have to run and buy things for my new dorm, so I will be back in a few hours, so neither of us are disippearing the while that we are dropping out of the discussion. I will get back to you when I get home! ^_^

I think Sirius/Remus is the one true way.

(I would wax poetic but then everyone here would shoot me. :D)

I think Sirius/Remus is the one true way.

thought so...I think I'm going to put my Jack/Will explaination in a new entry because it's going to require some back explaination...

We seem to have moved our discussion to your LJ instead. Hee.:)

I agree with the computer geek concept. I've heard it used for Elizabeth too, but she's a...different type of geek? She's slightly more of a mad scientist, more hands on I think.

Don't see her so much as a computer geek, but maybe a crazy business CEO type figure. She's more pragmatic than Will as well.

Not sure about the zodaic or palmistry elements. I'll leave those to you too.

And, calichan, thank you for saying that my Jack is liquid sex. Love you lots.

crazy business CEO type figure

actually, I see that. but a geeky CEO type (remember her pirate love)

...that would make her Lex Luthor tho, wouldn't it?

Except she has more hair :)

But does loving pirates count as geeky?

pirate geek! ::grin::

Your Jack is liquid sex.

Thank you too. [Unknown site tag] mentioned you quite a few times. Didn't know you read the series.

Damn LJ. I meant to say that

calichan mentioned you a few times. Anyway, pleased to meet you.

Pleased to meet you, too! I am absolutely in love with your writing. And your Jack. But that much was probably obvious. X)

You're talking about the ALT+F4 Jack, correct? I've written lots of fics with Jack. Would you like me to invade your LJ and inform you of updates to the ALT+F4 series?

My LJ would love to be invaded. In fact, I was just about to ask you if I might add you to ye olde friendslist. ^^

Fine by me. :)

Elizabeth... Elizabeth in my opinion is a fan girl. She has her own fantasy world that she escapes off to in her little pirate information books.

But while she has this imaginative, Evie-librarian side of her, she *is* pragmatic. Actually, Elizabeth reminds me a lot of Evie from the Mummy. Both strong female roles and characters.

And when her fantasy does actually turn into reality, Elizabeth attempts to handle the situations and events to the best of her knowledge and abilities.

Elizabeth in my opinion is a fan girl.

Wow, dude, I actually totally agree. And it comes as a shock to her, a complete and utter shock, when she sees what it is she's being a fangirl over for the first time in reality. Which is why she is so totally taken aback that Jack is both smelly and sneaky.

Excellent, excellent. Yes.

"Which is why she is so totally taken aback that Jack is both smelly and sneaky."

Hehehee. Her first real brush with the actual reality and lack lustre of pirates. And it's wonderful at the end of the movie, because she loves pirates even more despite her experiences with them. Which makes me feel a bit sorry for Will. Because Will to himself is Will the Blacksmith that happens to have the blood of a pirate and a goodman. While Elizabeth, although still liking Will for his other admirable qualities or personality or whatever, really sees the appeal of Will's pirate blood.

Perhaps Elizabeth is hoping that Will would run away to become a pirate so that she could become a pirate herself in turn.

I think mostly the only way they are either of them going to be pirates is if they come to a mutual decision to go off together. That's mostly the vibe I am getting. Sort of like, "All right, we're married, we're in Port Royal..." and then Will realizes what it is Elizabeth wants, starts to wonder if it's what he wants... It's hard to say. Because Will is very much not a pirate by his own desires and impulses and upbringing, but a pirate by blood. Elizabeth, not a pirate by blood, very much is a pirate by desires and impulses. So a lot of Jack/Will writers seem to be transposing Elizabeth's qualities onto Will for the sake of slashing Jack and Will and I am like, "Grr argh!"

Yes, I agree with you about the way Elizabeth and Will would become pirates. But of course, we could debate endlessly on whether or not Elizabeth and Will could actually make it as a real life couple and not get erm... backwashed by "inconsolable differences." And it's rather impossible to predict whether or not their romance would actually make it. Yes, they've had their catalyst of their little pirating adventure, and yes, Will's always had a puppy crush on Elizabeth, and yes, Elizabeth is always quite fond of Will, but can they make it work? They've never really tried out the relationship together with one another before beyond that unequal friendship they had before the movie.

As for Jack/Will slash. There's nothing there. It disappoints the slasher in me, but I can't deny it. Nothing there. We have a Will that *continually* disrupts Jack's plans and makes Jack's life even more complicated than ever. And we have a Jack who amiably to an extent puts up with Will because he needs to in order to get his ship back along with a dozen other reasons. The only time in which Will and Jack seem to hint of a possibility of a slashy relationship together is at the end action sequence and they more or less mimic each other's moves, perfectly. Yes, it looks cool, but I doubt we can ever find a logical explanation for their clockworklike mechanisms.

There's more sauce between Jack and Elizabeth than there is between Jack and Will. But that yet again is another debate for perhaps another time.

Elizabeth's and Will's experience on the pirating adventure have bound the two of them to Jack more so than the other way around. Elizabeth has found her outlet that could serve her well and she has found it through Jack and Will. Will is certainly tied to Jack as demonstarted by his conviction to stay with Jack at the end of the movie. Will seems to have also finally accepted the pirate blood in him and the fact that a good man and a pirate are not complete opposites.

Jack, however, loves his ship and has had many pirating adventures in his past, so the one shown in the movie is nothing too out of the ordinary for him. And thus, Elizabeth and Will to him are just people who dip into your life and out of it. Fleeting relationships with them in his opinion. The likelihood that Jack would continue to keep correspondences with them is... a bit of a 50/50, but I'm personally leaning towards nay.

But then again, it's a disney movie! And there's a sequel to be made... so inevitably, Jack's in Will's and Elizabeth's futures and Will and Elizabeth will get married to one another.

Yes, and there we go. My little mind burp.

And it's rather impossible to predict whether or not their romance would actually make it. Yes, they've had their catalyst of their little pirating adventure, and yes, Will's always had a puppy crush on Elizabeth, and yes, Elizabeth is always quite fond of Will, but can they make it work?

Again, I am huge on the agreeing with this statement of yours. (I like you. You rock.) Because I always thought that Elizabeth only started to return romantic affections once Will displayed the "pirate" side of himself, because the circumstances called for him to. Once they are no longer in those circumstances, however, will Elizabeth continue to be attracted to him romantically? Or will she realize she only loved the pirate in him enough to kiss him -- kissing him, you realize, once he sprung Jack from the hangman's noose! obviously was very excited by that piratical behavior -- while really, she just loves him as a friend and/or kid brother?

I am so glad you don't feel the Jack/Will vibe. Because I just really don't feel it, either. I went in to that movie theatre for the first time waiting, wanting, wishing to slash the Jack and the Will and came out of it feeling nothing, absolutely nothing, in terms of chemistry from them. Slowly but surely I am able now to see the occasional scenario between them working out, but on the whole it so doesn't do it for me. At all. There's no chemistry at all, as I said before, no heat and no passion and obviously no attraction on either end (though I think the whole "Will reminds me of Bootstrap!" bit should be explored and exploited far more than it already has been).

More kudo's to everyone for this Elizabeth/Will explaination, they're everything I wanted to say too. In reference to the Jack/Will...yea, I'm going to right another entry because it'll probably end up a bit long.

right

awww fucking 'ell. I can't BELIEVE I made such a stupid spelling mistake.

...I need more sleep.

And less sugar.

"(I like you. You rock.)"

YAY! *hugs ladyjaida*

"(though I think the whole "Will reminds me of Bootstrap!" bit should be explored and exploited far more than it already has been)."

Ahh... Bootstrap. Bootstrap is a trickey one. But, if Jack and Bill were actually romantically involved, why in the world would Jack have Barbosa as his trusted first mate? That's the thorn in my side whenever I read Jack and Bootstrap paired off together.

Jack himself only mentions or refers to Bill a handful of times. In the smithy fight scene, prison, tavern and on the ship. And it seems to me that Jack's and Will's conversation about Bill just ended right there with no other elaborations or explanations for the rest of the ship. I could see Jack just telling Will the barebones of the story and just leaving him hanging while Will goes deal with this new epiphany of his.

Whenever we deal with Bootstrap, we also have to ask just how deep was Jack's relationship with him? My impression was that Jack knew enough of Bootstrap perhaps as friend and a long time acquantence, but they may not have necessarily been the best of buds.

To me, Jack had far more of a relationship with Barbosa (who I think by the way is a bloody fascinating character.) How did Barbosa, that creepy backstabbing scumbag, become first mate on the Black Pearl? The scenes in which Jack and Barbosa share are interesting. Because Jack, unless he has the upperhand, is almost deathly serious. And perhaps I'm analyzing it too much, but when Barbosa mentioned how Jack's pacifism got him mutinied, it signaled to me that perhaps Barbosa was a sort of father-figure to Jack. Barbosa certainly is old enough to take on a father like role.

Yes, I know. That's me. The Barbosa Father Figure Theory... as a opposed to the opposite camp of: The Bootstrap Father Figure Theory. Although, both should probably be termed hypotheses rather than theories.

And I think one of the most memorable moments in the movie (excuse the unintentional alliteration) was when Jack shot Barbosa. And you could see that expression on his face. Not of hatred, anger or rage. But it certainly had a resolveful intensity and conviction. I'm trying to think of a moment that this could be equivalent to, but I can't.

You do! You rock. I shall let

calichan field the bit about Bootstrap because she is far more qualified to do so. And she shall also do so far better than ever I could.

That being said, BarbossaxJack is a special little kink of mine, because I feel there is so much left unsaid about their past relationships. ( Have a theory that Barbossa was jealous of Bill and in order to combat that jealousy, once Jack realized it, he gave Barbossa the position of First Mate because he knew Bill wouldn't worry as to his place in Jack's life. ) Definitely love the BarbossaxJack. Definitely need to do something with it.

Ahh... I have a love of Barbosa.

There needs to be more fics dedicated to him. The backstory that needs to be resolved through fanfiction in this fandom in almost infinite! I could list a thousand questions that can be tackled in ficlet form one way or another...

But back to Barbosa. I'm not positive if I would slash Barbosa together with Jack... but I'm rather neutral on the topic. I definately see Barbosa as the father-figure. And if you throw in the: Jack was Raised into Piracy Theory, you could perhaps incorporate a scenario in which Barbosa was Jack's father's lover. And while Barbosa would never betray John (current leading name of Jack's pirate captain father if there was one by a statistic of two) Sparrow, Barbosa may not have had qualms with betraying Jack, because Jack is obviously the son of his mother and we all know how the birds and the bees function. Or something along the lines of that... that just spews off into speculation after speculation.

But yes. I love Barbosa. And I love his green apples. Gee, that sounds perverted. Barbosa is probably on the top three favorite characters of mine along with Jack and Elizabeth. (Will is a bit too... generic? for me.)

BarbossaxJack?

ooo, yes please? again interesting dynamic there, especially with Jack's body language around Barbossa which half the time is closed in on itself. And of course the posturing and one upping and some such.

Also, was it just me, or did Barbossa cackle *merrily* when chasing Jack in the scene? Ok, true it might be just the actors having a ball, but Barbossa didn't mind fighting Jack "until the trumpet sound". Best enemies, yes.

I really do feel like there is a great understanding between Barbossa and Jack, that they play off each other perfectly, that Barbossa is one of the few people who can challange Jack cerebrally. They have a beautiful rapport, now soured by their falling out, but they clearly know each other very well and on the matter of "However, for some reason I see them now almost pranking each other on the ship, or at least getting into MAJOR one-upsmanship competitions," I think they probably did that all the time. There's not much to do on a ship, you know, on the open ocean for weeks, besides bicker with your friends, or friendly rivals. When Jack and Barbossa are debating over the table they seem, to me, to be playing a game of 'who can keep cool the longest', they're both using a lot of physically intimidating body language while they trade volleys of words, and both trying to out-impose one another. I love their dynamic, it's just fabulous. I can see those games being played much more innocuously before they had a parting of ways, and I think they really enjoy each others company, in terms of the mental stimulation it provides.

*nervously sneaks forward*

( Have a theory that Barbossa was jealous of Bill and in order to combat that jealousy, once Jack realized it, he gave Barbossa the position of First Mate because he knew Bill wouldn't worry as to his place in Jack's life. )

Wow. I didn't know someone else had that theory too! Amazed and very, very gratified to see it written out. XD

Fascinated by debate and will post this before letting my brain register the fact that I am posting. Did that make sense?

*scuttles off*

Okay, the thing you have to understand about someone being the first mate of a ship is that their duty isn't just to assist the captain or play compliment to him, heck, that's the quartermaster. Their duty is to take over the ship if the captain dies. That's all. And in terms of having a first mate, the best idea isn't always to make it your best friend.

Sure, Bill might have been Jack's's most trusted friend. He might have been his lover. But the thing is, and this is just the way I write him in order to make it make sense knowing he was not the first mate or the quartermaster, say he was more talented on the side of the physical, of winning bouts of swordplay more than winning matches of chess, it would be rediculous to make him first mate of the ship. Sure, the Pearl would fall into the hands of someone that knew how much Jack cared for it, but if that person couldn't hatch the sort of schemes to keep the treasure coming in and the crew from being arrested her days on the water after Jack's death would be very, very short.

For my thoughts on Jack and Barboss and the mutiny, see this post: http://www.livejournal.com/users/musexmoirai/12241.html?thread=69585#t69585.

Barbossa as a first mate, however, makes total sense. The man is a splendid pirate. His rather nasty personality doesn't make him any less of a great tactician. I have no doubt he and Jack used to be pretty close, perhaps always in a "I nag you you nag me we're happy" way (even if they were buggering each other), but no doubt companionable enough in their time. I can't really see Barbossa ever being Jack's father figure, however, they're too much brotherly, or loverly, whichever way you want to color it, playing "Who's got the bigger dick" all the time.

Anyway, and this is the problem with a lot of Will/Jack fics, your first mate *isn't* always your best friend. Or your lover. Your first mate is the person best suited to take care of your ship and your crew if your head gets blown off. No less, if sometimes, perhaps, depending on the pair, something more. Sometimes there isn't a first mate on the ship, sometimes the quartermaster just takes over and runs the ship until a new captain can be voted into place. (This is how I feel Barbossa runs his ship, with Bo'sun as the quartermaster and no first mate, as there's no one else constantly at his side but Bo'sun, and Bo'sun takes over the running of the ship when the battle is over).

yes! THANK YOU for mentioning the first mate thing. And I totally agree with you on the Barbossa/Jack dynamic, possibly one of the only reasons that Jack's "Your funeral." line actually stopped Barbossa from slitting Will's throat.

However, for some reason I see them now almost pranking each other on the ship, or at least getting into MAJOR one-upsmanship competitions.

"And I totally agree with you on the Barbossa/Jack dynamic, possibly one of the only reasons that Jack's "Your funeral." line actually stopped Barbossa from slitting Will's throat. "

That's brilliant. Damn. Now I need to somehow conspire my way into seeing the Pirate's movie again just to retest my flopping fish theory and try to gain another.

"Okay, the thing you have to understand about someone being the first mate of a ship is that their duty isn't just to assist the captain or play compliment to him, heck, that's the quartermaster. Their duty is to take over the ship if the captain dies. That's all. And in terms of having a first mate, the best idea isn't always to make it your best friend. "

Ahhh... Okay. Thankies very much. That clarifies a lot of ship ranking hierarchy mechanisms that I could never fathom or understand before. Hmm... In light of this new information, whether or not the Barbosa as a father figure theory will survive in my own mind is a bit uncertain. Let's let that one sizzle in the back of my mind for a few days.

Yes. I love your explanation of pre-marooning Black Pearl politics. Barbosa is definately able to be a fantastic pirate captain. Hehehe. *soft spot for Barbosa* (Loved the actor in Shakesepeare in Love.)

I agree with the last paragraph of your Jack's Mutiny explanation, but not quite so on the long paragraph before it. But I can't pin down why, unidentifiable personal preference maybe? It's the romantic in me, isn't it? The one that says: It'll be so beautiful if Jack inherited the Black Pearl from his family and blah blah blah blah blah.

Hmmm... That was an exceptional enlightening post! Thank you! Hehehe. Now I know the difference between a quartermaster and a first mate. :)

The quartermaster and captain have pretty much equal power, think of the quartermaster as the civil leader of the ship, he has final say in deciding punishments, and he's the one who divies up the loot and leads the landing parties. The captain is the military leader of the ship, he decides where they're going, what they're going after, and when the ship enters combat with another ship, the captain is the sole person in charge. This would be Barbossa and Bo'sun in the movie, or Jack and Gibbs, meanwhile AnaMaria is Jack's first mate (this is made clear in the junior novel but not in the movie itself).

Well, save that she clearly takes over the ship when Jack falls behind.

AnaMaria and Jack.

They have a lovely dynamic between them. I think I turned into sappy fan girl at the end of the movie in which AnaMaria gives Jack his jacket and says, "Captain Sparrow... the Black Pearl is yours."

There are *such* possibilities with the fandom!

I've already talked with Jaida about this a lot of times, so pretty much, at this point, I stand at the same place. We've definetly managed to write one little scenerio with Jack and Will, which turned out pretty cute, and fluffy... and involved intoxication. And the thing is, rule of thumb, if you can't slash them without booze, you're not really slashing them. Booze is the cop out in the world of ficcing, the easy, always-works way to slash all characters. (Okay, except Norrington and Will, that took a hurricane, alcohol, and a concussion, but that was the ultimate "These characters have no chemistry to speak of!" RP session between me and my friend Lizzie...).

Definetly agree on all the Will/Elizabeth points, although I think they could work as a couple for awhile, I think once Will discovers his hormones he'll be plenty experimental and flirty and like "Hello! I've got hormones! These are new!" and Elizabeth would no doubt be encouraging, and adventerous, sexually, so they'd at least likely kick off to an interesting physical relationship that would hopefully sustain them awhile in figuring out if they wanted to live together forever or not...

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Conclusions in The Great Will Debate...

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yeah, I know it's not 4pm but I NEED a break...

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